From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Norton "Witch World" From: ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) Organization: Fujitsu America, Inc. Date: 25 Sep 86 06:43:36 MET In article <3411@caip.RUTGERS.EDU> cjh@CCA.CCA.COM writes: >From: cjh@CCA.CCA.COM (Chip Hitchcock) > > Do Andre Norton's "Witch World" books fit into any sort of orderly >chronology? Are there any that are more or less worth reading than others >in the series? Well, I'm sure others more knowledgeable will correct me, but as I remember: The first five or so follow a chronological order, then the continuity gets spotty. Let's see... Horn Crown (Prequil. Quite good.) Directly related stories: ----------------------------- Witch World (The original. It'd make a great movie...) Web of the Witch World (Part two of story started in Witch World) Three Against the Witch World (Different storyline, same family as WW and WotWW, but the beginning takes place con- currently with the first two books.) Warlock of the Witch World (Part two of story started in TAtWW.) Sorceress of the Witch World (Part three. Reconnects with plot from WotWW.) ----------------------------- Spell of the Witch World (Cronology not clear. Probably concurrent with first book.) Sign of the Unicorn (Nothing to do with Unicorns. Misleading cover. Passable story, though. Takes place sometime after WotWW to new characters.) Trey of Swords (Not up to the quality of the others. Takes place after SotWW.) Zarasthor's Bane (Probably the most disappointing of the lot. cronology not clear. Probably after ToS.) 'Ware Hawk (Sometime after WotWW. Not great, but better than ZB.) The Toads of Grimmerdale (Short story. Cronology unclear.) Oh, This is where the stories take place: Horn Crown First colonization of the Old Race into Etscarp. Witch World Simon Tregarth's entry into Etscarp. Web of the Witch World Etscarp and surrounding countries. Three Against the Witch World Etscarp and Escore. (Children of Tregarth) Warlock of the Witch World Escore. Sorceress of the Witch World Escore and other places. Spell of the Witch World High Halleck (?) (Short stories.) Sign of the Unicorn High Halleck. Trey of Swords Escore. Zarasthor's Bane Escore. 'Ware Hawk Etscarp and the land to the south that I don't remember the name of. The Toads of Grimmerdale Etscarp. Notes: There is a hint that there will be another book that details the origin of That Which Runs the Ridges. I can't wait, even though I think she should have left it a mystery. The three books about Tregarth's children are interesting because each is told from a different child's view, although they follow chronologically. I read Horn Crown whilst camping alone in the California Redwoods. I highly recommend the experience. Ron -- -- Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!ronc -or- ihnp4!pesnta!fai!ronc Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: "If you are seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it." From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Andre Norton: Witch World query From: wenn@gandalf.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn) Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, CS/RI Date: 17 Jul 87 05:50:23 GMT Witch World books have been published by many different companies (Ace, DAW, Del Rey, Tor, among others), so just looking at the "other Witch World books" inside the front cover never gives you a complete list. As far as I know (as owner of ~60 Andre Norton books, plus several reference books), this is a complete list of Witch World books: Estcarp Witch World [1963] Web of the Witch World [1964] Three Against the Witch World [1965] Warlock of the Witch World [1967] Sorceress of the Witch World [1968] The Trey of Swords [1977] 'Ware Hawk [1983] High Halleck The Year of the Unicorn [1965] The Crystal Gryphon [1972] Spell of the Witch World [1972] (Story Collection) The Jargoon Pard [1974] Zarsthor's Bane [1978] Horn Crown [1981] The Gryphon in Glory [1981] Gryphon's Eyrie [1984] (with A. C. Crispin) Both Estcarp & High Halleck stories Lore of the Witch World [1980] (Story Collection) Tales of the Witch World [1987] (Anthology edited by Andre Norton) The stories either take place in Estcarp or in High Halleck. The two story cycles are essentially independent. Estcarp is a matriarchal society under the rigid control of the Witches (women with magic). The Estcarp books should be read in chronological order, since each book progresses from the actions of the previous books (this is less true of "'Ware Hawk"). High Halleck is a newly colonized land that was mysteriously empty when the colonists arrived. There still exists, however, places and objects of power left from the old inhabitants; places helpful, neutral or harmful to humankind. Most of the stories occur when High Halleck is invaded by another continent (but "The Horn Crown" covers the colonization of the High Halleck). The books are essentially independent with a few exceptions ("The Year of the Unicorn -> The Jargoon Pard" and "The Crystal Gryphon -> The Gryphon in Glory -> Gryphon's Eyrie"). Witch World is one of my all time favorite series, but then I really like Andre Norton. The best places to start would be "Witch World" for Estcarp, and "The Horn Crown" for High Halleck. Both are good introductions to the series. If you like these, by all means read the entire series. /John inthebegininggodcreatedtheuniversethishasmadealotofpeopleveryangryandhas beenwidelyregardedasabadmove-ly From archive (archive) Subject: Author Lists: Andre Norton From: JWenn To: SF-LOVERS%rutgers:EDU Date: 18 Dec 88 17:03:47 PST (Sunday) To the best of my knowledge, Andre Norton has never won a major award for fiction (although she has had two Hugo nominations). Paradoxically, she has won every Life-Achivement award given in SF. This illustrates that the body of Andre Norton's work is more important than any particular story. The first book DAW published was a Witch World novel. The first book Tor published was "Forerunner" Probably as many kids have gotten hooked on SF by reading a Norton story as reading any other author (Heinlein is probably tied for this honor). Virtually all of her characters must go through some rite of passage, making her work appealing to juveniles. Personally, I really like Norton's work (if anyone could tell me where to get a copy of "Day of the Ness", "Outside", "Rogue Reynard" and "Star Ka'at and the Winged Warriors" I'ld have a complete set of her SF). In her books, science and technology always take a back seat to plot and character. And while she isn't a great prose stylist, her style is effective in presenting her story. And to me, Andre Norton is a great *STORY-TELLER*. She writes both SF and Fantasy, and her stories are set in a wide variety of settings, aliens, cultures and technologies. Her most famous fantasy work is the Witch World series. This divides into two separate cycles: Halleck & Estcarp. I prefer the Estcarp stories myself. Although Witch World is better known, most of her SF is science fiction. And most of her science fiction is space opera (in the best possible sense): men bravely exploring the outer reaches of the galaxy, finding strange artifacts, meeting alien races and struggling against overwhelming odds. While her many SF books aren't really part of a single series, they do share a common background: The rise and fall of the human galactic empire, where many alien races co-exist and the ruins of other, older empires ("Forerunners") are scattered with odd and powerful artifacts. Psychic powers and partnerships with alien/animals are prominent. These stories take place anytime & anywhere in this history, with little details (the game of stars and comets) adding to the flavor. Listed below are her ~95 SF books, plus her ~22 non-SF books. Most of the non-SF are historical fiction with no obvious fantastic element. A number of these have been marketed as SF anyway (If C. J. Cherryh's "The Paladin" [a fine historical novel, by the way] can be marketed as fantasy, I can include Andre Norton's historical novels in my listing). [A] == Anthology. (A bunch of stories written by other people) [C] == Short Story Collection. [CP] == Chapbook (a very short book, or pamphlet).. [J] == The book is for juveniles (however you define them) [O] == Omnibus. Includes other books. aka == Also known by this other title. includes == This book wholely includes the other /John arpa: JWenn.ESAE@Xerox.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- Norton, Andre [U.S.A., 1912- ] [born Alice Mary Norton, legally changed] [Nebula Grand Master 1983] The Magic Sequence: [J] The Magic Books [1988] [O] Steel Magic [1965] [aka "Gray Magic"] Fur Magic [1968] Octagon Magic [1967] Dragon Magic [1972] Lavender-Green Magic [1974] Red Hart Magic [1976] The Witch World Series: Estcarp Cycle: Witch World [1963] Web of the Witch World [1964] Three Against the Witch World [1965] Warlock of the Witch World [1967] Sorceress of the Witch World [1968] The Trey of Swords [1977] [C] 'Ware Hawk [1983] The Gate of the Cat [1987] High Hallack Cycle: The Gryphon Saga: [concluded by Norton & Crispin] The Crystal Gryphon [1972] The Gryphon in Glory [1981] The Year of the Unicorn [1965] Spell of the Witch World [1972] [C] The Jargoon Pard [1974] Zarsthor's Bane [1978] Horn Crown [1981] Both Estcarp and High Hallack Cycles: Lore of the Witch World [1980] [C] Tales of the Witch World [1987] [A] Tales of the Witch World 2 [1988] [A] Four From the Witch World [1989] [A] The Ross Murdock/Time War Series: The Time Traders [1958] Galactic Derelict [1959] The Defiant Agents [1962] Key Out of Time [1963] The Central Control Series: Star Rangers [1953] [aka "The Last Planet"] Star Guard [1955] The Pax/Astra Series: The Stars are Ours! [1954] Star Born [1957] The Janus Series: Judgement on Janus [1963] Victory on Janus [1966] The Solar Queen Series: [first three as Andrew North] Sargasso of Space [1955] Plague Ship [1956] Voodoo Planet [1959] Postmarked the Stars [1969] The Blake Walker Series: The Crossroads of Time [1956] Quest Crosstime [1965] [aka "Crosstime Agent"] The Jern Murdock Series: The Zero Stone [1968] Uncharted Stars [1969] The Free Traders Series: Moon of Three Rings [1966] Exiles of the Stars [1971] Flight in Yiktor [1986] The Hosteem Storm Series: The Beast Master [1959] Lord of Thunder [1962] The Forerunner/Shan Lantee Series: Storm Over Warlock [1960] Ordeal in Otherwhere [1964] Forerunner Foray [1973] Forerunner [1981] Forerunner: The Second Venture [1985] Rogue Reynard [1947] Huorn of the Horn [1951] Star Man's Son 2250 A.D. [1952] [aka "Daybreak -- 2250 A.D."] Sea Siege [1957] Star Gate [1958] Secret of the Lost Race [1959] [aka "Wolfshead"] The Sioux Spacemen [1960] Catseye [1961] Star Hunter [1961] Eye of the Monster [1962] Night of Masks [1964] Operation Time Search [1967] The X Factor [1968] Dark Piper [1968] Dread Companion [1970] Ice Crown [1970] High Sorcery [1970] [C] Android at Arms [1971] Breed to Come [1972] Garan the Eternal [1972] [C] Here Abide Monsters [1973] Iron Cage [1974] The Many Worlds of Andre Norton [1974] [aka "The Book of Andre Norton"] [C] Knave of Dreams [1975] Merlin's Mirror [1975] No Night Without Stars [1975] Outside [1975] Perilous Dreams [1976] [C] Wraiths of Time [1976] The Opal-Eyed Fan [1977] Quag Keep [1978] Yurth Burden [1978] Voorloper [1980] Moon Calling [1982] Wheel of Stars [1983] Serpent's Tooth [1987] [CP] Moon Mirror [1988] [C] [includes "Outside"] Wizard's World [1989] Norton, Andre & Crispin, A[nn] C. Gryphon's Eyrie [1984] [Conclusion to Gryphon Witch World Saga by Norton] Norton, Andre & Gilbert, Michael The Day of the Ness [1975] Norton, Andre & Madler, Dorothy The Star Ka'at Series: Star Ka'at [1976] Star Ka'at World [1978] Star Ka'at and the Plant People [1979] Star Ka'at and the Winged Warriors [1981] Norton, Andre & Miller, Phyllis Seven Spells to Sunday [1979] House of Shadows [1984] [Not SF] The Drew Rennie Series: Ride Proud Rebel! [1961] Rebel Spurs [1962] The Lorens van Norreys Series: The Sword is Drawn [1944] Sword in Sheath [1949] [aka "Island of the Lost] At Swords' Point [1954] The Prince Commands [1934] Ralestone Luck [1938] Follow the Drum [1942] Scarface [1948] Yankee Privateer [1955] Stand to Horse [1956] Shadow Hawk [1960] The White Jade Fox [1975] Velvet Shadows [1977] Snow Shadow [1979] Iron Butterflies [1980] Ten Mile Treasure [1981] Stand & Deliver [1984] Norton, Andre & Cushing, Enid Caroline [1982] Norton, Andre & Hogarth, Grace Murders For Sale [1954] [as Allen Weston] Norton, Andre & Miller, Phyllis Ride the Green Dragon [1985] Norton, Andre & Norton, Bertha [her mother] Bertie and May [1969] From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Andre Norton From: nott@cisunx.UUCP (Nancy Ott) Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh, Comp & Info Sys Date: 22 Dec 88 19:14:38 GMT In article <1230002@hpcea.CE.HP.COM> twakeman@hpcea.CE.HP.COM (Teriann Wakeman) writes: >looking through the Andre Norton list, I have read 79 of them & probably still >have all 79 still on my bookshelfs. Gads no wonder I'm out of shelf space. > >I am one of those people who grew up reading her novels but I also got tired >of her single story framework. > >GENERIC STORY > >HERO: young, outcast of some kind or from discriminated against group. No >special training. Special magical or physic abilities. > >BAD guys: Fat, physically ugly, given to dark magic or evil. > >STORY: hero goes on trip, learns to use special power.overcomes evil during >trip. > >TRIP SCENES: go through country. special relationships with some animals. >part of trip underground. Underground passage includes large caverens where >hero can not see either end. Caverns full of vegitation from other planets. >cavern with walls wide enough to walk upon. Were abandoned underground >city. Had animal pens. some are broaken & there may be old wild animals >about. underground cravises & rivers (tends to be nasty animals in them) >At least one passage with sickly green phospherescent slimey growth & evil >toad stools. Common wall writing consisting of coloured bands that make the >hero's eyes hurt whe he/she looks at them. > >GUIDELINES: hero triumps where trained experts fail. > primitive technology & magic/physic powers triumph over hi-tech. > human animal bond closer & more important then human-human > relationships. American Indian culture whereever possible. > > >OK with this generic story you could write an Andre Norton book yourself. >I have much respect for the Lady. I just wish she had a little more >imagination for story sequences. > >Probably about to be flamed royally for criticising a SF great > >TeriAnn No, no flames -- just commentary. I think that some of the points you're making about Andre Norton are accurate. She does tend to have a plot centering around some type of travel -- a quest, as in Gate of the Cat; an escape, as in Dark Piper; a search for a home, as in Flight from Yiktor; a search for a loved one or significant other, as in The Crystal Gryphon. Often, the protagonist's physical journey mirrors or symbolizes her self-realization or enlightenment, as in Sorceress of the Witch World. Certain themes are also universal among her novels. Coming-of-age, whether masculine or feminine, is probably the most prevalent. Many of her protagonists are young. Many are gifted with unsuspected powers, usually psychic. Their maturation is evidenced by their perseverance in some type of conflict against evil -- and also against their own flaws in character. Adult Norton heroines/heroes usually come to some realization about themselves or come to terms with their weaknesses. Norton's strength is in her ability to create a protagonist that can easily be identified with. Her heroines/heroes may occasionally be stuffed shirts, but they are rarely boring. They are generally ordinary people thrust into extraordinary situations where their strengths and weaknesses are glaringly apparant. They are far from omnipotent, solving their problems by wit and inner resources rather than by frontal assault (although this is periodically used). One problem that I have with Norton's novels, however, is that her protagonists seem to succeed too often. I would prefer to see more failures, but I guess their stories don't seem as interesting. . . The underground motif is pretty frequent, and I believe that this is tied in with the lack of sex in most Norton novels. Caves and dark underground tunnels are often images of female sexuality (think about it), and a scenario that frequently appears in a Norton novel is the (male) protagonist wandering through a mysterious underground cave complex. Yet when above ground, this hero generally conducts only the most chaste relations with his female companion(s). It seems to speak of an ambivalence toward sex, a sense that one's sexuality is not tied in with one's maturity, or, for that matter, any other facet of one's personality. In general, people don't have sex in Norton novels. (Okay, there are exceptions, as in Gryphon's Eyrie, the short story Toads of Grimmerdale, and a few others.) Perhaps it's sublimated into the underground imagery? Perhaps the sex was never stated because many of her novels are juveniles? To my recollection, only in Gryphon's Eyrie does Norton (and A.C. Crispin) present a well-defined sexual relationship between two adults that is essential to the plot. Norton's weaknesses lie in a tendency to repeat the same themes from novel to novel in much the same way. Her plots tend to be very similar, and her heroines/heroes, as was said above, share a lot of the same characteristics. I belive this stems from an unwillingness by the author to abandon a format that works. I doubt it's lack of imagination, since her worlds are in general pretty vivid and well-thought-out. So why do I still keep on reading Andre Norton novels??? I think it's because I like her style. Sure, her prose has a few clunkers in it once in a while (if I read "needs must" one more time, I think I'm going to scream!), but in general her novels are pretty well-written, with a nice economy of words and vivid description. Her characters are easy to identify with and are (I feel ) interesting. Her worlds are full of mysteries -- places of old powers that spring out of the grass, lost races, galactic debris, remnants of old myths, badlands. There is war and bloodshed, grief and tragedy -- yet in spite of assaul;t by evil, good remains. There is always a sense of incredible age and lost majesty, and a feeling that the days of glory are long past. Andre Norton was the first female SF author I ever encountered. After reading a lot of Heinlein, Asimov, and the like, I had despaired of ever encountering a sensible woman in space. Sure, these authors weren't without female characters, but they were almost always minor, and were usually simpering ornamental types (exception: Arcadia Darrell in 2nd Foundation) or somebody's love/sex interest/ property. (I hadn't read any of Heinlein's novels with female protagonists at the time, but even so, I still don't like his treatment of women in most of his books.) Andre Norton was different. Her women (and girls, since I was 12 or 13 at the time and was looking for SF books about young people) were intelligent, independant and gifted. They went out and got things done for themselves, and didn't wait for Prince Charming in a silver rocketship to save the day and whisk them off to a beautiful split-level home in the suburbs of Mars. They weren't omnipotent, or supremely beautiful. They were in fact ordinary. And as a teenager who felt very ill-at-ease with her body, complexion, weight and height, I identified very deeply with their plainness, theri isolation from society, their coming to grips with their power and their consciences, their perseverance in the face of danger, and their eventual acceptance of themselves. -nancy