From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Chalker (was "Information (details and Magic)) From: mende@aramis.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende) Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Date: 28 Mar 87 21:38:26 GMT In article <3345@gitpyr.gatech.EDU> byron@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Byron A Jeff) writes: > In article <381@aramis.RUTGERS.EDU> mende@aramis.RUTGERS.EDU (Bob Mende) writes: >>9. All of his books are places on worlds that do not obey most or any >> of the "laws of nature". Look at well world, lord of the >> diamonds, flux, ... >> Bob >I'm not so sure about this one. On Well World the Well computer monkeyed with >the Markovian space-time equations to get the funky physics. All the hexes >followed the "laws of nature" defined by the programmer who had the math to >transcend the default laws. Please note that I "quoted" laws of nature". I did not make myself clear, and for this I am sorry. What I ment about not following "laws of nature" was that the local laws of nature were modified from, or just plain different from those on earth. I have never read one of his books (and I have only missed a few of the recient ones (school takes up far too much time :-) )) where the characters are on a "Normal" earthlike planet (universe) that did not have some quirk or another. > Byron Jeff Bob -- {Both Reality and this message are figments of my imagination} ARPA: mende@rutgers.edu BITNET: mende@zodiac.bitnet UUCP: {anywhere}!rutgers!mende Voice: Yo Bob will do. From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Chalker (was "Information (details and Magic)) From: revell@xanth.UUCP (James R Revell Jr) Organization: Old Dominion University, Norfolk Va. Date: 1 Apr 87 19:29:52 GMT Even in newer book "The Messiah Choice" there is the almost standard sex-change. It does seem to have been overdone a bit at this point. Sorta makes one think he's got a hangup on the matter.... From archive (archive) Subject: Chalker From: brothers@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laurence R. Brothers) Date: 1 Apr 87 20:58:11 GMT Well, I've never been a major fan of Chalker, he has always seemed to be something of a hack writer, of the kind Spinrad would eliminate from the face of the Earth without a second thought (according to his articles). But his books usually are entertaining, so I continue to buy them, hoping he'll return to the quality shown by, say, Midnight at the Well of Souls (but not the later Well books), or And the Devil Will Drag You Under, both of which were very good, if not great. His latest though, Pirates of the Thunder, is very good. He actually has some interesting characters, moderately original gadgetry, and a real plot, more than you can say for some of his other recent series. It is the second in a perhaps interminable series, and I didn't like the first very much, and the odds are the others in the series will not be too good (given the general series track record), but you never know. Saying too much about the book would be a spoiler, since it is a mystery-style "what is going on here?" kind of series, but there are classic Chalker elements, from body-changing to self-aware computers.... If you like Chalker there is no reason not to go out and buy this one, and if you have been disappointed by his last spate of series, this one may still satisfy you. -Laurence From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Jack Chalker From: clapper@NADC.ARPA (Brian M. Clapper) Date: 12 Jan 88 16:24:00 GMT gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren) writes: > ... Chalker's books are, by and large, the same, with > the same stale plot elements, and the same sub-adolescent hangups. > As an example - almost every Chalker book has, as an integral > element, transformation of a human being. Every time a > transformation is made, if the transformed person ends up as a > female, she will have huge breasts. If the transformed person ends > up as a male, he will have a gigantic penis. Every time. Even if > the transformation is into an animal! > > I got very tired of Chalker very quickly. While he has original and > interesting ideas, the ideas get submerged in the sewage very early > on. Not recommended. I couldn't agree more. Every time Chalker would come out with a new book, I would give him "one more chance," only to be disappointed to find that I'd essentially already read it. (I've since given up.) It is, however, amusing to note that a posting about Chalker always generates a lot of discussion in this forum. He seems to bring out the pop psychologist in everyone (including myself). Brian M. Clapper ARPA: clapper@nadc.ARPA Naval Air Development Center UUCP: ...!harvard!clapper@nadc.ARPA Warminster, PA From rhes@igloo.UUCP (Richard H. E. Smith II) Subject: Re: Jack Chalker From: rhes@igloo.UUCP (Richard H. E. Smith II) Organization: igloo, Northbrook, IL Date: 16 Jan 88 11:15:20 GMT clapper@NADC.ARPA (Brian M. Clapper) writes: >gethen!farren@RUTGERS.EDU (Michael J. Farren) writes: >> ... Chalker's books are, by and large, the same, with >> the same stale plot elements, and the same sub-adolescent hangups. >> ... >> I got very tired of Chalker very quickly. While he has original and >> interesting ideas, the ideas get submerged in the sewage very early >> on. Not recommended. > >I couldn't agree more. Every time Chalker would come out with a new book, I >would give him "one more chance," only to be disappointed .... I recall Chalker saying that he always writes first draft, never rereads or rewrites. Can't you tell, tho. I finally gave up, too. -------------------------------- Dick Smith ...ihnp4!ddsw1!igloo!rhes From archive (archive) Subject: Jack Chalker Book List From: duane@cg-atla.UUCP (Andrew Duane) Organization: Compugraphic Corp., Wilmington, Mass Date: 9 Aug 88 18:32:31 GMT The (edited) list of Jack Chalker books, as taken from the back of the book "Dance Band on the Titanic". I have abbreviated some long descriptions of the books and their publications to save space. For more information, I suggest reading the story collection (it is worth it anyway!). * A JUNGLE OF STARS Ballantine/Del Rey, 1976. Editions Michel Albin, Paris, 1979 * MIDNIGHT AT THE WELL OF SOULS Del Rey, 1977 Penguin Books, U.K., 1981 Goldmann, Munich, 1978 (in German) * THE WEB OF THE CHOZEN Del Rey, 1978 Wilhelm Hein Verlag, Munich, 1981 (in German) A highly rewritten Hebrew edition (Tel Aviv, 1981) * EXILES AT THE WELL OF SOULS Del Rey, 1978 Penguin Books, U.K., 1982 Goldmann, Munich, 1979 (in German) Danish, Dutch, Italian editions now appearing * QUEST FOR THE WELL OF SOULS Del Rey, 1978 foreign editions as above * AND THE DEVIL WILL DRAG YOU UNDER Del Rey, 1979 German Edition, Goldmann, 1983 French Edition, 1987 optioned to the movies * A WAR OF SHADOWS Ace: An Analog Book, 1979 Reprinted, Ace, 1984 optioned to the movies * DANCERS IN THE AFTERGLOW Del Rey, 1979, 1982 Goldmann, Munich, 1982 (in German as Der Tourister Planet) * THE RETURN OF NATHAN BRAZIL Del Rey, 1980 foreign editions as other Well of Souls books above * THE DEVIL'S VOYAGE Doubleday, 1980 sold to Critic's Choice, NYC * TWILIGHT AT THE WELL OF SOULS Del Rey, 1980 foreign editions as other Well of Souls books above * LILTH: A SNAKE IN THE GRASS Del Rey, 1981 Goldmann, Munich, 1982 (in German) * CERBERUS: A WOLF IN THE FOLD Del Rey, 1982 Goldmann, Munich, 1982 (in German) British Edition pending * THE IDENTITY MATRIX Timescape: Pocket Books, 1982 Reprinted, Baen Books, 1986 Sold to Goldmann, Munich * CHARON, A DRAGON AT THE GATE Del Rey, 1982 Goldmann, Munich, 1984 (in German) British Edition pending * THE FOUR LORDS OF THE DIAMOND The Science Fiction Book Club, 1983 Contains all four "Diamond" books, slightly rewritten British and other foreign editions pending * MEDUSA: A TIGER BY THE TAIL Del Rey, 1983 Goldmann, Munich, 1985 (in German) British Edition pending * THE RIVER OF THE DANCING GODS Del Rey, 1984 British Edition, Futura, 1985 * DEMONS OF THE DANCING GODS Del Rey, 1984 British Edition, Futura, 1986 * SPIRITS OF FLUX AND ANCHOR Tor Books, 1984 Series sold to Holland and Denmark for 1987-88 publication * EMPIRES OF FLUX AND ANCHOR Tor Books, 1984 * DOWNTIMING THE NIGHT SIDE Tor Book, 1985 * MASTERS OF FLUX AND ANCHOR Tor Books, 1985 * VENGEANCE OF THE DANCING GODS Del Rey, 1985 British Edition, Futura, 1986 * THE MESSIAH CHOICE St. Martin's/Blue Jay, 1985 (hardcover) Tor Books, 1985 (mass paperback) * THE BIRTH OF FLUX AND ANCHOR Tor Books, 1985 * CHILDREN OF FLUX AND ANCHOR Tor Books, 1986 * LORDS OF THE MIDDLE DARK Del Rey, 1986 Series sold to Hodder/NEL, Britain for 1987-88 publication Series sold to Italy, no publication information yet * PIRATES OF THE THUNDER Del Rey, 1987 British Edition, Hodder/NEL Italian Edition coming * THE LABYRINTH OF DREAMS Tor Books, 1987 * THE SHADOW DANCERS Tor Books, 1987 * WARRIORS OF THE STORM Del Rey, 1987 * WHEN THE CHANGEWINDS BLOW Ace/Putnam, 1987 British Edition pending * MASKS OF THE MARTYRS Del Rey, 1988 British Edition, Hodder/NEL Italian Edition coming * RIDERS OF THE WINDS Ace/Putnam, 1988 British Edition pending * DANCE BAND ON THE TITANIC Del Rey, 1988 * THE MAZE IN THE MIRROR Tor Books, 1988 * THE WAR OF THE MAELSTROM Ace/Putnam, 1988 * THE DEMONS AT RAINBOW BRIDGE Ace/Putnam, 1989 * SWORDS OF THE DANCING GODS Del Rey, 1989 Andrew L. Duane (JOT-7) w:(508)-658-5600 X5993 h:(603)-434-7934 Compugraphic Corp. decvax!cg-atla!duane 200 Ballardvale St. ulowell/ \laidback Wilmington, Mass. 01887 cbosgd!ima/ \cgeuro Mail Stop 200II-3-5S ism780c/ \wizvax From archive (archive) Subject: Jack Chalker info found! From: dnichols@mips.csc.ti.com (Dan Nichols) Date: 11 Aug 88 20:18:14 GMT I finally found a hard copy of the cross-reference of themes in Jack Chalker's books. Here it is for anyone interested. I forget who originally posted this. Following the cross-ref, I'm including the full bibliography from Otherrealms. Standard Chalker Plot Devices ============================= WC = Web of the Chosen DD = And the Devil Will Drag You Under JS = A Jungle of Stars WW = Well World FL = Four Lords of the Diamond DG = Dancing Gods RM = Rings of the Master SR = Soul Rider DN = Downtiming the Night Side IM = The Identity Matrix MC = The Messiah Choice GD = G.O.D. Inc. WS = War of Shadows o Shape changing (WC, DD, JS, WW, FL, DG, RM, SR, DN, IM) o Sex changing (WC, WW, FL, DG, RM, SR, DN, IM, MC) o Body Swapping (DD, JS, WW, FL, DG, RM, SR, IM) o Drug-induced behavior modification, usu. sexual (WW, WS, GD, RM, SR) o Artificial Intelligences (WC, WW, RM, SR, MC) o Parodies of Earth Cultures (WC, DD, WW, FL, RM, SR, GD) o Consciousness as part of the body (GD, RM, SR) o Nymphomania (WC, FL, RM, SR, GD) o Pregnancy Compulsion (SR, RM, FL, WC) The following are not present in the "Rings of the Masters" series - yet. o Intelligent Microorganisms (WW, FL) o Humans In Alien Suits (WC, JS, WW, FL, IM) Bibliography Jack Chalker Copyright 1987 by Jack Chalker 1. A Jungle of Stars, Ballantine/Del Rey, 1976. Also Editions Albin Michel, Paris, 1979 (in French). Some German fans insist there was a German edition circa 1978 but if there was I never saw it. 2. Midnight at the Well of Souls, Del Rey, 1977. Also Penguin Books, U.K., 1981; Goldmann, Munich, 1978 (in German). Danish and Dutch editions now appearing, more to come. Series sold to Italy in 1987, my first seven-figure advance. Unfortunately it's lira.... 3. The Web of the Chosen, Del Rey, 1978. Also Wilhelm Hein Verlag, Munich, 1981 (in German); also in a highly rewritten Hebrew edition (Tel Aviv, 1981). 4. Exiles at the Well of Souls, Del Rey, 1978. Also Penguin Books, U.K., 1982; Goldmann, Munich, 1979 (in German). Danish, Dutch, Italian editions now appearing. 5. Quest for the Well of Souls, Del Rey, 1978. Foreign editions as above. 6. And the Devil Will Drag You Under, Del Rey, 1979. German edition, Goldman, 1983, with same cover. French edition 1987 with new cover in large-size trade paperback format. Optioned to the movies. 7. A War of Shadows, Ace: An Analog Book, 1979. Reprinted with new (good) cover and packaged like a mainstream thriller, Ace, October, 1984. Optioned off and on to the movies. 8. Dancers in the Afterglow, Del Rey, 1979, 1982. Also Goldmann, Munich, 1982 (in German as Der Tourister Planet). 9. The Return of Nathan Brazil Del Rey, 1980. Foreign editions as above (see Midnight.). 10. The Devil's Voyage Doubleday, 1980, in hardcover. Japanese rights were sold but no book produced so far in Japanese. Out of print at Doubleday, after 3 printings. After a long dispute with me over paperback rights, Doubleday found a loophole and sold it at the last minute to Critic's Choice paperbacks, a new company in NYC about which I know nothing except that they seem SF oriented and bought this for my name. Unfortunately, they published the Doubleday version, not the one I wrote; 1985, with a great cover. Book is a WWII novel, not SF, although John W. Campbell is a minor character. 11. Twilight at the Well of Souls, Del Rey, 1980. Foreign editions as per Midnight. 12. Lilith: A Snake in the Grass, Del Rey, 1981. Also Goldmann, Munich, 1982 (in German). British edition pending. 13. Cerebus: A Wolf in the Fold, Del Rey, 1982. Also Goldmann, Munich, 1983 (in German). British edition pending. 14. The Identity Matrix, Timescape: Pocket Books, 1982. Reprinted, with new cover and fresh typesetting, by Baen Books, January, 1986. Sold to Goldmann, Germany, other foreign sales pending. Although #14 in publication, this was written #3, immediately after Midnight at the Well of Souls. 15. Charon: A Dragon at the Gate, Del Rey, 1982. German edition (Goldmann), 1984. British edition pending. 16. Four Lords of the Diamond The Science Fiction Book Club, 1983, March main selection. Contains all four "Diamond" books (#s 12, 13, 15, and 17) although slightly rewritten by me to eliminate some recap that was needed in the four but unnecessary in a single volume edition. Original cover by Richard Powers for this book. British and other foreign sales are pending; there is suddenly a lot of interest in it abroad. 17. Medusa: A Tiger by the Tail, Del Rey, 1983. Also Goldmann, Munich (in German), 1985. British edition pending. 18. The River of Dancing Gods, Del Rey, delivered in March of 1982 but Del Rey did not publish it until February, 1984. British edition, Futura, 1985. 19. Demons of the Dancing Gods, Del Rey, delivered in October, 1982; published May 24, 1984. British edition, Futura, 1986. 20. Spirits of Flux and Anchor, Tor Books, 1984. First of a large novel split into 3 books. 21. Empires of Flux and Anchor, Tor Books, 1984. Second in the Soul Rider books, delivered in May, 1983 and written continuously with #20 above. Marketed as Soul Rider: Book Two with the title off to one side. 22. Downtiming the Night Side, Tor Books, May, 1985. A complex time travel novel not connected to a series or other works. Delivered December, 1983. 23. Masters of Flux and Anchor, Tor Books, January, 1985. Third but not last in the Soul Rider saga, although it completes the original novel as outlined. Delivered January 25, 1984. Copies were received in Nov. 84. The Danish edition of this one will be abridged, and not by me. 24. Vengeance of the Dancing Gods, Del Rey, July, 1985. Third but not the last of the Dancing Gods series, although the last written to date. Delivered April, 1984. Futura, U.K., 1986. 25. The Messiah Choice, St. Martins/Blue Jay, May, 1985 in hardcover. Mass market paperback, Tor Books, May 1986. A horror novel with SF overtones, should appeal to my regular readers who don't like horror. Delivered August 1, 1984. Blue Jay is bankrupt (not my doing!) and the copies were remaindered by St. Martins and may be available cheap somewhere. The Tor paperback is still in print, though. 26. The Birth of Flux and Anchor, Tor Books, 1985. A "prequel" to #s 20, 21, and 23 above, set 2600 years earlier. Delivered January 15, 1985, copies received November 14, 1985. No, they called it Soul Rider: Book 4, not Book 0. 27. Children of Flux and Anchor, Tor Books, September, 1986. Not a sequel, as originally intended, but actually the last part of the mega-novel I thought I could cover in #3 but ran out of room to do. 28. Lords of the Middle Dark, Del Rey Books, June, 1986. First volume in a new mega-novel, The Rings of the Master, which was not my series title (I called it The Malebolge Rings). Delivered July 15, 1985. Entire series sold to Hodder in Great Britain for publication starting late in 1987 and going through late 1988. 29. Pirates of the Thunder, Del Rey Books, March, 1987. Continuation of the Rings of the Master series begun with #28 above. Delivered March 27, 1986. British edition from Hodder. 30. The Labyrinth of Dreams, Tor Books, March, 1987. First in an open- ended series of at least 3 stand-alone novels with the same lead characters and premise. The series overtitle is G.O.D., Inc. Originally intended as a mega-novel, this turned out to be a true series, each book complete. I had so much fun with the first one I wrote it in near record time and delivered it on August 10, 1985, five months before it was due. It sort of does to parallel worlds and thirties' detective fiction what the Dancing Gods series does for Conan. Rescheduled because of the St. Martins buyout of Tor so while I had no books for 9 months come out this comes out the same month as Pirates. This book and its sequels have been banned in parts of Alabama, Tennessee, and the Carolinas because distributors considered the overtitle sacreligious. Chain book stores there will have it, though. 31. The Shadow Dancers, Tor Books, July, 1987. Second of the G.O.D., Inc. books. The first was sort of Raymond Chandler; this one is more like Alternate World Vice although it has a fun parody of The Thin Man at the end. More serious than #29 but still fun. Delivered December 15, 1985, copies received June 17, 1987. See banning notice on #30 above. 32. Warriors of the Storm, Del Rey Books, August, 1987. Third in the Rings of the Master series begun with #28 and #31 above. Delivered May 25, 1986 at Disclave. British: Hodder. 33. When the Changewinds Blow, Ace/Putnam, September, 1987. After 3 books from 3 publishers in 3 consecutive months people are going to think I have Clark Kent's typing speed. First in a projected trilogy that is one long continuous novel and is a totally continuous narrative. It is fantasy, not terribly comedic although it is satire of a different sort, but it has all the elements you've come to expect from me (and the worst pun I have ever had the guts to commit in a book). Delivered October 20, 1986. The book has a really fine wrap-around Darrell Sweet cover. Written And Delivered But Not Yet Published 34. Masks of the Martyrs, Del Rey, January, 1988. Last of the Rings of the Master series, delivered February 24, 1987. Yes, it ends the series, and quite bizarrely, too. British: Hodder. 35. Dance Band on the Titanic, Del Rey Books, 1988. Story collection with lots of commentary. You will even learn such things as why I write a lot of books on transformation themes. Lots of prefatory matter, commentary, barbs and darts, and even some memoir, much taken from the stuff I do at conventions but a lot blunter, particularly my views on critics, criticism, and failed writers. Some sting may be lessened by publisher's lawyers. 36. Riders of the Winds, Second book in the Changewinds series (see #33 above) for Ace/Putnam. Delivered May 22, 1987. Now slated for May, 1988. 37. The Maze in the Mirror, Tor Books, 1988. Third in the G.O.D., Inc. series begun with #29. 38. The War of the Maelstrom, Ace/Putnam, 1988 (maybe). Not due until October of 1987. The third and climactic Changewinds book. If you ever liked the wildest parts of my writing you won't want to overlook this. If you want a book with a wild and woolly hundred plus page climax including sword and sorcery battles with tactical nuclear weapons -- and the swords win -- you will like this one. 39. Swords of the Dancing Gods, Del Rey, late 1988 (at least). This may -- or may not -- be the last book, but considering what the series satirizes there was no way I could leave it at a cliched trilogy. Be warned: this involves a massive frozen battleground, the Master of the Dead, the Baron, both Irvings, and a strange and epic fantasy quest involving Gilligan's Island. 40. The Quintara Marathon, This is the overtitle of a three-book series I will be writing starting in 1988 for 1989 publication for The Berkley Group. It will be issued first in hardcover as part of the deal, so it might be 1990 before the pb of the first one appears.All I can tell you is that it's SF, really cosmic, has lots of alien worlds and creatures but does not have a transformation motif (although people find it in books I write without it anyway and probably will here) and should appeal to those who liked Four Lords and the Rings series. Dan Nichols UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,uiucdcs,sun} POB 655474 M/S 238 !convex!infoswx!ti-csl!dnichols Texas Instruments Inc. ARPA: dnichols@csc.ti.com Dallas, Texas 75256 VOICE: (214) 995-6090 From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Jack Chalker info found! From: chuq@plaid.Sun.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) Organization: Fictional Reality Date: 12 Aug 88 05:51:16 GMT >Here it is for anyone interested. I forget >who originally posted this. Following the cross-ref, I'm including >the full bibliography from Otherrealms. ARGH!!!!!!! Not only did I specifically ask that this NOT be posted to sf-lovers, you have successfully violated Jack Chalker's copyright on this. He owns the copyright. It was accessible from my archive server because the archive server is defined as a back issue. Posting this to SF-L constitutes republishing the damn thing, which you don't have permission to do, and which I don't have permission to do. I got one time rights to the material, no more. I'm going to talk to Jack about this, and I'm sure it won't be a problem, especially since you left the copyright notice attached (at the same time you were violating it...). But this net HAS to learn not to screw around with copyrights, or it's going to get in trouble. I'm pissed, because the violation came out of OtherRealms, which puts me in potential liability. Damn it, I try to do OtherRealms on the net as a service to all those neat people out there who enjoy it. But you start screwing around with the material, you start violating its copyright or re-using it incorrectly, you no only screw the author and break international laws, you're putting me and my publication at risk at the same time. And if it comes down to getting my ass sued or dropping OtherRealms from the net, guess which will happen? I LIKE having OR on the net. But there are certain rules everyone has to play by, and copyright is one of them. Start breaking the rules (and frankly, USENET is the ONLY network I've ever seen with such a disregard for the laws of the land) and everyone loses. It only takes one or two to create a problem that everyone gets caught in. Because of this, until I can clear things with Chalker and make sure the re-distribution of OR back-issues really is kosher, my archive server is going to be turned off for OtherRealms. My apologies for any inconvenience this might cause, but I can't afford to take chances. And for the record, everything in OtherRealms is either copyright by the author or copyright by me. It can NOT be re-used in any way without permission. That's made very clear in every issue, and there is no excuse for this. chuq > > Bibliography > > Jack Chalker > > Copyright 1987 by Jack Chalker > sigh. -- Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM Delphi: CHUQ From archive (archive) Subject: Re: SF Lovers Digest From: pcp2g@bessel.acc.Virginia.EDU (Philip C. Plait) Organization: Academic Computing Center, University of Va. Date: 28 Sep 88 02:34:04 GMT In message # <8809211511.aa23746@ardec-3.ardec.arpa> (whew!), Daemon@rutgers.rutgers.edu writes, "...are there any Jalk Chalker fans out there?" Any Chalker fans? A hex on Jack Chalker, I'm a Brazil nut!! I wish I could take credit for that. I have it on a button I got at a con 'bout ten years ago. I just finished reading "And the Devil Will Drag You Under" for the fifth or sixth time last week. Great book, even though it would seem that there are some continuity problems in it, like times get screwed up, places, etc. Still, his "Well of Souls" books are my favorite series to date. * Phil Plait PCP2G@bessel.acc.virginia.EDU * UVa Dept. of Astronomy PCP2G@Virginia From archive (archive) Subject: Chalker question From: stephenj%deblil@Sun.COM (Stephen Johnson) Date: 16 Nov 88 18:53:39 GMT I have been reading the posted articles on Chalker under the subject 'sex and mathematics.` I think Chalker is a terrific Science Fiction/ Fantasy writer (his imagination is amazing) except for one thing... I have read several of Chalker's books including the Well World series (loved the girl who got the horse tail in the beginning), flux and anchor, Diamond world series, etc. I have stopped reading his stuff because of the five ring series. I got this idea that Chalker had some sexual problems while reading the Flux and Anchor series (women forced, by magic, to wear high heels and run around topless). When I got to the five rings series, I stopped reading his books. This series is really degrading to women and intelligent people in general. I was wondering if any of you out there in netland know if Chalker has some personal problems that make him write this stuff. I mean did his wife leave him for another man or was his mother a demeaning, dominating monster. Does this guy have a problem or what? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen P. Johnson Sun Microsystems, Inc. Internet: stephenj@sun.com Mail Stop 5-40 UUCP: ...!sun!stephenj 2550 Garcia Ave. Bell: (415) 336-7978 Mountain View, CA 94043 From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Sex and Mathematics From: gwp@hcx3.SSD.HARRIS.COM Date: 16 Nov 88 22:43:00 GMT Written 6:30 pm Nov 13, 1988 by ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu > Precisely -- in the same sense as Huxley's version. (In both, the > population is very happy where they are.) Chalker (according to his > essay in _Dance Band on the Titanic_) is saying, not that the human > race is *better off* in those circumstances, but that they're > *happier*, regardless of how revolted Us Readers are. His intention is > to warn us that such things will actually happen as soon as we get the > technology to do it, and nobody will complain because we're all happy > that way... What makes you think this hasn't _already_ happened ? Delbert de la Platz @ Keith Moon's Awesome Thunder (gwp@ssd.harris.com) From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Chalker question From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Organization: Carnegie Mellon Date: 17 Nov 88 23:50:32 GMT >I got this idea that Chalker had some sexual problems while reading >the Flux and Anchor series (women forced, by magic, to wear high >heels and run around topless). ...This series is really degrading to women >...I was wondering if any of you out there in netland know if Chalker >has some personal problems that make him write this stuff. I'd say you're asking the wrong question. Chalker seems to be claiming (one may always disagree) that people given absolute power over others will quickly come to treat those others as objects of their sexual- and power-fantasies. Degradation comes into those real quick. He may have his own problems, but I wouldn't cite his books as evidence. The more common complaint about Chalker's themes is that there are so few of them. Repeated so often. ----- Dani Zweig haste+@andrew.cmu.edu From archive (archive) Subject: Author Lists: Jack Chalker From: JWenn.ESAE@XEROX.COM Date: 20 Feb 89 09:56:07 GMT I've never been a fan of Jack Chalker. He's heavily into series, and like most series, the first books are the most interesting. I found "Midnight at the Well of Souls" to be fairly good and "The River of Dancing Gods" to be a moderately funny send-up of generic fantasy novels (although not as funny as early Robert Asprin or any Terry Pratchett). [C] == Short Story Collection. [CP] == Chapbook (a very short book, or pamphlet).. [NSF] == Not SF [S] == Scholarly rev == revision of an older title /John arpa: JWenn.ESAE@Xerox.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- Chalker, Jack L[aurence] [,M.L.A.] [U.S.A., 17/12/1944- ] The Saga of The Well World: Midnight at the Well of Souls [1977] Exiles at the Well of Souls [1978] Quest for the Well of Souls [1978] The Return of Nathan Brazil [1980] Twilight at the Well of Souls [1980] The Four Lords of the Diamond Tetralogy: Lilith: A Snake in the Grass [1981] Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold [1982] Charon: A Dragon at the Gate [1982] Medusa: A Tiger by the Tail [1983] The Dancing Gods Series: The River of Dancing Gods [1984] Demons of the Dancing Gods [1984] Vengence of the Dancing Gods [1985] The Soul Rider Series: Spirits of Flux and Anchor [1984] Empires of Flux and Anchor [1984] Masters of Flux and Anchor [1985] The Birth of Flux and Anchor [1985] Children of Flux and Anchor [1985] The Rings of the Master Series: Lords of the Middle Dark [1986] Pirates of the thunder [1987] Warriors of the Storm [1987] Masks of the Martyrs [1988] G.O.D. Inc. Series: The Labrynith of Dreams [1987] The Shadow Dancers [1987] The Maze in the Mirror [1989] Changewinds Series: When the Changewinds Blow [1987] Rider of the Winds [1988] War of the Maelstrom [1988] An Informal Biography of Scrooge McDuck [1974] [CP] The New H. P. Lovecraft Bibliography [1962] [S] A Jungle of Stars [1976] The Web of the Chozen [1978] Dancers in the Afterglow [1978] And the Devil Will Drag You Under [1979] A War of Shadows [1979] The Devil's Voyage [1981] [NSF] Identity Matrix [1982] Downtiming the Nightside [1985] The Messiah Choice [1985] Dance Band on the Titanic [1988] [C] Chalker, Jack & Owings, Mark The Revised H. P. Lovecraft Bibliography [1973] [S] [rev. of "The New H. P. Lovecraft Bibliography"] The Index to the Science-Fantasy Publishers [1966] [S] Index to the SF Publishers [1979] [S] [rev. of "The Index to the Science-Fantasy Publishers"] The Necronomicon: A Study [1967] [S] From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Jack.Chalker From: cthulhu@claris.com (Paul T.S. Lee) Organization: Claris Corporation, Santa Clara CA Date: 25 Jun 89 02:11:00 GMT >From article <6600006@silver>, by hero@silver.bacs.indiana.edu: > Chalker has such a way of fucking with his characters. He > changes their bodies, sexuality, perosonality, everything > we would least want changed in our selves. (This is his > most prevelant recurring theme.) One problem Chalker has is that not only is this his most prevelant theme, it is almost his only theme. As well written as some of his works are, he hardly ever departs from this theme. Personally, I would like for him to expand on some other aspects of his stories. His technologies and societies are very well done, but he hardly works on a scale greater than a human character's lifespan. I think that he could do great things with worlds if he'd only take a longer view, somewhat like what Frank Herbert has done. > Any way, try any of the following Chalker series: > Soul Rider (5 books) > Rings of the Masters (4 books) > Warden Diamond series (4 books) > Changewind series (3 books)(book 1 is boring, but 2&3 are better > this is my least favorite of all his series) > Well of the Souls (5 books) > Messiahs Choice (1 book Techno-satanism theme, interesting story) > War of Shadows (1 book, one of his early stories about > biological warfare by terrorists against the US) Here are some more Chalker books you may want to try: The Dancing Gods series (3 books) God Inc. series (I think there will be 4 of these, 3 are out) The Devil Will Drag You Under (1 book, everyman and everywoman saves the world with the help of an alcoholic demon) The Web of the Chosen (1 book, about the exploration of a planet and the discovery of a new alien race) Dancers in the Afterglow (1 book, one of the few Chalker books I haven't read yet, one of his first) With the exception I noted and the Changewind series, I've read all the others listed here. I sometimes wonder why I keep buying his stuff, but I think its because his stories does keep me interested. If nothing else, I want to see what indignaties he will inflict on his characters next. :-) The Four Wardens of the Diamond is my favorite. It is (plotwise) much more cohesive than his other books. Well of the Souls is second, and the Flux and Anchor (Soul Rider) books are third. _The Devil Will Drag You Under_ is middlin to fair, but his standalone novels are not the greatest in the world, usually not half as good as the series. That's all for now. (Sorry about the length. I thought I was just going to post a response. Silly me. :-)) > Good reading. Hero **************************************************************************** Paul Tien-Shih Lee |cthulhu@claris.com Claris Corporation, SQA Division|{ames,apple,sun,portal,voder}claris!cthulhu Disclaimer: Dis is my claimer. |AppleLink PE:Paul Lee If Claris wants one, it can get |AppleLink: D0667 its own. All hail Discordia! |(coming soon to a network near you) **************************************************************************** From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Jack.Chalker From: jvte@euraiv1.uucp (Jan van 't Ent) Organization: Erasmus Univ.;EUR/EF/AIV; P.O.B. 1738; NL 3000 DR Rotterdam Date: 26 Jun 89 18:07:40 GMT cthulhu@claris.com (Paul T.S. Lee) writes: >From article <6600006@silver>, by hero@silver.bacs.indiana.edu: >> Chalker has such a way of fucking with his characters. He >> changes their bodies, sexuality, perosonality, everything >> we would least want changed in our selves. >One problem Chalker has is that not only is this his most prevelant >theme, it is almost his only theme. Well, maybe not quite true, but it probably overwhelms underlying subtleties that *do* exist in his better stories. >... His technologies and >societies are very well done, but he hardly works on a scale greater >than a human character's lifespan. Also not quite true, in particular Nathan Brazil (Well of Souls) and also the Soul Rider series are 'larger than life' ;-) Yet another Chalker book you may want to try: Dance Band on the Titanic - a collection of his short stories plus introduction (and bibliography) I particularly liked the varied contents. Jan van 't Ent - Erasmus Universiteit Rotterdam - VANTENT@HROEUR5.bitnet From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Jack.Chalker From: terman@portia.Stanford.EDU (Mutant for Hire) Organization: Knight of the Order St. Elvis Date: 26 Jun 89 23:50:46 GMT In article <10347@claris.com> cthulhu@claris.com (Paul T.S. Lee) writes: >One problem Chalker has is that not only is this his most prevelant theme, [transformations of characters] >it is almost his only theme. As well written as some of his works are, he >hardly ever departs from this theme. Personally, I would like for him to >expand on some other aspects of his stories. His technologies and >societies are very well done, but he hardly works on a scale greater than >a human character's lifespan. I think that he could do great things with >worlds if he'd only take a longer view, somewhat like what Frank Herbert >has done. Well, you may as well ask why Doc EE Smith wrote only space opera, or why all of Orson Card's main characters seem to be children who have the crap beaten out of them. Not all of his stories involve transformations, just the vast majority. Also the ones with transformations are not all clones of each other. Its like calling all of early Heinlein "boy scout heros go flying in space", its true, but an oversimplification of the books. For non-transformation stories, try _Dance Band on the Titanic_ for some shorts stories, _War of Shadows_, and GOD Inc. The latter has a small amount of transforming, but its more on the level of plastic surgery and mind destroying drugs. As for operating on the scale of a human lifespan, most authors seem to be fairly guilty of that crime. And in fact in some of the more interesting societies, he actually has done it over a period of several lifespans. The Soul Rider series takes place over a long period of time, though thanks to magic most of the characters last. But he did do a book which gives the start of that society. Well of Souls also goes over quite a long period of time. One of the things in his favor is that he is one of the few authors who tries to explore what an improved understanding of the human mind will bring. Not to mention improved genetics. In his futures, he has mental disorders being on the same level as current medical technology with respect to physical disorders. They are easily diagnosed and treated with advanced machinery. Of course, what is defined as a mental disorder is up to the state. Sort of reminiscent of what the Soviet Union did with politcal dissidents. _Dance Band on the Titanic_ is highly recommended reading. He goes into why he writes a lot of transformation stories and some of his own personal philosophy, where he goes and trashes a lot of modern ideology. -- Martin Terman |Space is warped.|e-mail to: terman@portia.stanford.edu Mutant for Hire |Space bends all |"I've always found that people use Physicist from Hell |matter -> matter| witty remarks when they have nothing net.mutant |is also warped. | meaningful to say."- M.F. Terman From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Jack.Chalker From: peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) Organization: Sugar Land Unix - Houston Date: 2 Jul 89 03:35:23 GMT In article <3182@portia.Stanford.EDU>, terman@portia.Stanford.EDU (Mutant for Hire) writes: > In article <10347@claris.com> cthulhu@claris.com (Paul T.S. Lee) writes: > >One problem Chalker has is that not only is this his most prevelant theme, > [transformations of characters] > >it is almost his only theme.... > Well, you may as well ask why Doc EE Smith wrote only space opera, Space Opera is a genre. Kinky SF Sex is a genre. Smith wrote lots of different kinds of Space Opera. Chalker has one particular kink in mind, and (excuse me) beats it to death. > or why all > of Orson Card's main characters seem to be children who have the crap beaten > out of them. Interesting point. I guess the fact that Card can make you care about his characters, and has more than string to his violin, makes the difference. > Not all of his stories involve transformations, just the vast > majority. Name one exception. A real exception, not just a disguised version of the theme. > Also the ones with transformations are not all clones of each other. No? Here's the Jack Chalker Plot Line: Strong, able characters get turned into sex slaves. They decide they're better off being sex slaves, and actively resist being changed back. Here's the major variation: Strong, able characters get turned into sex slaves. They decide they're better of being sex slaves, and when they get changed back they start looking for ways to become sex slaves again. > Its like calling all of early Heinlein "boy scout heros go flying in space", And here's the sub-plot: The magic is really mathematics, and math majors/math professors become the reigning wizards. The magic involves communication with some mysterious entity. And the variation on the sub plot: The magic is really computer programs, and the entity is a computer. > transforming, but its more on the level of plastic surgery and mind destroying > drugs. Literal transformation isn't the point. The point Chalker is hammering in is that if you change the body you change the mind. -- Peter da Silva ...texbell!sugar!peter, or peter@sugar.hackercorp.com From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Jack.Chalker From: terman@portia.Stanford.EDU (Mutant for Hire) Organization: Knight of the Order St. Elvis Date: 2 Jul 89 20:48:33 GMT In article <3975@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <3182@portia.Stanford.EDU>, terman@portia.Stanford.EDU (Mutant for Hire) writes: >> Not all of his stories involve transformations, just the vast >> majority. >Name one exception. A real exception, not just a disguised version of the >theme. By chance have you read _War of Shadows_? Plot: some of the major corporate heavyweights decide to form a conspiracy to take control over the US. They do this by creating a germ warfare terrorist group to scare the public into accepting martial law. Not a single transformation in the book. No sex slaves either. _Dance Band on the Titanic_ has very few, if any transformation short stories. I can't recall any offhand. >> Also the ones with transformations are not all clones of each other. >No? Here's the Jack Chalker Plot Line: > Strong, able characters get turned into sex slaves. They decide > they're better off being sex slaves, and actively resist being > changed back. Not exactly. If you look at _Soul Rider_ series, only one of the major leads likes looking like a fluxgirl, because its cuter than her old form. Cassie becoming a fluxgirl in the later books of the series does not count because she decides to become one after an intense brainwashing session thrown at her. Note that the characters were often happier as fluxgirls, "ignorance is bliss" and all that and that is why they don't want to be changed back *initially*. They resist at first because knowledge means unhappiness, but after they get past that point, they do not want to become fluxgirls again. How about the _Well World_ series. There is one sex slave at the beginning, who becomes much happier after she is freed off of it, and does not want to go back for anything in hell. On the Well of Souls itself, there are some races which are really male dominated, but there are others which are heavily female dominated as well. These are put in to emphacise the different types of races that exist on the Well. Is this series a clone of the _Soul Rider_ series? Not especially. Then there is the _Four Lords of the Diamond_ series. Very few sex slaves here except for the one that appears in book four. Since she's had her memory of her previous life erased and what she knows now programmed in by computer, the idea of choice doesn't enter into her life. She does break out of the conditioning at the very end, but the book ends before we find out what she wants to do. >Here's the major variation: > > Strong, able characters get turned into sex slaves. They decide > they're better of being sex slaves, and when they get changed back > they start looking for ways to become sex slaves again. Uh, which series are you talking about here. This does not happen in any of the series I recall. Can you give an example. >And here's the sub-plot: > > The magic is really mathematics, and math majors/math professors > become the reigning wizards. The magic involves communication with > some mysterious entity. Chalker is intriuged by the idea of people possessing powers inherent in them, and not contained in some device. So this usually implies magic powers. So he wants magic, but he'd like to have magic be worked in the same way that science is on this world. He wants strict rational behavior and so forth. I prefer his system to most fantasy authors who say "it works, more we do not know". His wizards studied magic and learned everything they could, reduced it to a set of fundimental laws expressed in mathematical terms. Thus only a mathematician could really understand magic fully. One may ask why only heavy mathematical types can understand physics fully. As for the mysterious entity, Chalker is trying to get around the problem of how wizards with a few simple gestures can due incredibly complicated stunts which would require a few million Crays about a billion years to do. He wants to have his magic be as rational as science is. He likes to keep his stuff at least loosely in science. >> transforming, but its more on the level of plastic surgery and mind destroying >> drugs. >Literal transformation isn't the point. The point Chalker is hammering in is >that if you change the body you change the mind. So what, that is a well known fact. Since the mind resides in the brain, anything that damages the brain will screw up the mind. Chalker isn't the only one to use mind control drugs, he just does so with more frequency. Chalker is exploring variations on a theme. So far, your "typical Chalker plot" is shown to be very untypical, and I have compared several series here to show differences between them. Deep ones as well. There are similarities, but you haven't really even addressed those. _Changewars_ series is pretty much a clone of _Soul Rider_ to a point, but that's about the closest I can get to his series being identical to each other. -- Martin Terman e-mail to: terman@portia.stanford.edu From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Jack.Chalker From: peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) Organization: Sugar Land Unix - Houston Date: 4 Jul 89 03:06:52 GMT In article <3282@portia.Stanford.EDU>, terman@portia.Stanford.EDU (Mutant for Hire) writes: > Chalker is exploring variations on a theme. So far, your "typical Chalker plot" > is shown to be very untypical, and I have compared several series here to show > differences between them. Deep ones as well. There are similarities, but you > haven't really even addressed those. _Changewars_ series is pretty much a clone > of _Soul Rider_ to a point, but that's about the closest I can get to his > series being identical to each other. You're being too literal. There are superficial differences, but he's got this one BIG POINT he needs to keep hammering away at. Other minor variations of the theme can be found in the River of the Dancing Gods, and Web of the Chozen. So what if the point is largely true... it's still a pretty tight play-list. In fact it'd be nice if he'd even find another point worth making. -- Peter da Silva ...texbell!sugar!peter, or peter@sugar.hackercorp.com From archive (archive) Subject: Re: Jack.Chalker From: db@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Dave Berry) Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U Date: 5 Jul 89 15:48:52 GMT In article <3985@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <3282@portia.Stanford.EDU>, terman@portia.Stanford.EDU (Mutant for Hire) writes: >> Chalker is exploring variations on a theme. > >You're being too literal. There are superficial differences, but he's got >this one BIG POINT he needs to keep hammering away at. I don't remember the first book of the Well World series being about this. Maybe it was a sub-plot, but it wasn't the main theme. I don't know about the rest of the series; the second one was just too awful... Dave Berry, Laboratory for Foundations db%lfcs.ed.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk of Computer Science, Edinburgh Uni. !mcvax!ukc!lfcs!db From archive (archive) Path: sssab.se!isy!liuida!sunic!mcsun!uunet!cs.dal.ca!dal1!splebrun From: splebrun@ac.dal.ca Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers Subject: Jack Chalker Message-ID: <1377@ac.dal.ca> Date: 26 Mar 90 16:14:46 GMT Reply-To: splebrun@ac.dal.ca Lines: 15 Organisation: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada Did anyone else notice that there seems to be a continuing theme running through all of Jack Chalker's works? I have yet to read one where a human being is not transformed into a different type of creature. Does anyone know of any of his works where this doesn't happen ? It seems as if he had a lot of creatures made up for the well world saga and now he doesn't want to waste them, so he sprinkles them in all of his books. I love Chalker's work but I'd love to see him try something different and not stick to a formula, however successful it has been. From archive (archive) Path: sssab.se!isy!liuida!sunic!mcsun!uunet!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!pasteur!cory.Berkeley.EDU!kumasawa From: kumasawa@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Ice) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers Subject: Re: Jack Chalker Message-ID: <23487@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> Date: 28 Mar 90 05:35:32 GMT References: <1377@ac.dal.ca> Sender: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU Reply-To: kumasawa@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Ice) Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 184 splebrun@ac.dal.ca writes: >Did anyone else notice that there seems to be a continuing theme running >through all of Jack Chalker's works? Well, yes. Chalker is the best, IMO, in a particular sub-genre: the transformation novel. This sub-genre attempts to point out how insidious transformations occur, or will occur, to us in real life right under our noses and we don't see them, and sometimes accept or demand them afterword. Not all of his books are of this sub-genre, but it's no surprise that many of them are. >I have yet to read one where a human being is not transformed into a >different type of creature. Transformations into a different type of creature are just one type of transformation he writes about. Many of his books just have transformations into another human, and others have transformations of mental condition only. Some have no transformations at all. >Does anyone know of any of his works where this doesn't happen ? Here's a run-down from memory (that is, my catagorization by what I remember happened in the books, not the titles of the books). The *'s in front are an indication of how much the transformations, if any, are a part of the story. In some cases, transformations are not an important aspect of the story, but in others it is the story. The more *'s, the more I feel the transformations were integral to the story. Books with transformations into other creatures (includes those that also have transformations into other humans or personalities): A Jungle of Stars **** the Well of Souls novels (all "3") **** The Web of the Chozen **** the last half (2 books) of the Lords of the Diamond novel **** the "2" Soul Rider novels * the Dancing Gods trilogy *** the Rings of the Master novel ** the Changwinds novel Books with transformations into other "humans" (and perhaps other personalities, but not including any from the first group): * And the Devil Will Drag You Under **** first half (2 books) of the Lords of the Diamond novel **** The Identity Matrix **** Downtiming the Nightside Books with transformations into other personalities (but not including any from the previous groups): ** Dancers In The Afterglow ** The Messiah Choice *** the three G.O.D., Inc. novels [Chalker considers these as not having transformations, but it's his idea that physical change be a metaphor for mental change, so I see direct mental changes as transformations too.] Books with no transformations: A War of Shadows [the biochemicals kill, for all practical purposes] The Devil's Voyage [the only one I haven't read, but it's historical] His book _Dance Band On The Titanic_ his 7 short stories in it, only two of which involve transformations [the longest two]. >It seems as if he had a lot of creatures made up for the well world >saga and now he doesn't want to waste them, so he sprinkles them in all of >his books. Ooops. That's too bad it seems that way to you. I'm convinced that Chalker carefully thinks out the necessary creatures way in advance of each book, and that each creature is made with that book in mind. >I love Chalker's work but I'd love to see him try something different >and not stick to a formula, however successful it has been. In the Afterword of his book _Dance Band On The Titanic_, Chalker talks at length (27 pages) about why he writes using "transformation metaphors". I'll conclude this post by including some excerpts from the first few pages. If you'd rather not read them, hit 'n' now. Otherwise, listen to him rant. Hope this is helpful ... - Carl Johnson I am constantly asked why I am so fascinated with transformations. I am reluctant to answer that question because I find the very fact that it was asked rather strange. I wonder if anybody ever asked Doc E.E. Smith why he wrote space stories all the time, or Phil Dick why he wrote "what is reality?" stories all the time, or asked Agatha Christie why she always wrote whodunnits. On reflection, though, I think they _were_ asked, time and time again. [...] People are always saying "Oh, another Chalker transformation stroy," as if it's the same story, and often asking "When are you going to write stories that don't have transformations in them?" Never mind the fact that I have written such stories: _The Devil's Voyage_, _A War of Shadows_, or even the entire _G.O.D., Inc._ series, to name but a few. One reason is that I'm good at this kind of story, better than others who have tried it -- you know it and so do I -- just as Dick was best at his kind of story and Ellison at his. And you know it because you tend to buy far more of that sort of book than of my novels that don't have that element even as you carp about "another Chalker transformation story." I don't want to give the impression, though, that I'm pandering to the marketplace (if I were that type you'd be reading _Well World #316_), but one good reason I write what I do is the same reason for writing fantasy and science fiction in the first place -- the freedom it gives. [...] Transformation allows an even greater element of freedom and flexibility since you aren't stuck with anything inconvenient. So if my most popular device is also the one that affords me the most freedom, I'd be a fool not to use it if the story called for it, wouldn't I? There is also exaggeration for effect. I know what research is being done now, and what has been done in the past. I know how the mind can be changed, attitudes altered, and it's grave potential for very evil and unpleasant ends. With the development of new technology growing exponentially every ten years, the tremendous discoveries in gene manipulation, and the very nature of personality and memory, we face problems far more insidious than the nuclear bomb. [...] We were not prepared for the nuclear bomb, and we're certainly not prepared for the next equivalent development; and the next time, the technology won't blow up obviously in your face. It'll creep in, hardly noticed at first ... All science fiction and fantasy stories are at their very hearts tales of transformation. History, which was my chosen field, is the study of transformation. A future setting requires extrapolating the transformations of history into a future landscape with future technology. I can not ignore the assumption that current research will be completed to do quickly what past authorities have done slowly without violating my own inner logical sense. You don't need science fiction to watch uneasy transformation in action. It isn't like turning into a centaur or a monster; it's far more scary. The women in Iran, fairly liberated under the old and repressive regime of the Shah, surrendered all rights, put the veil back on, and once again became fourteenth-century chattel. They will fight and die for the right to be submissive property. No fancy new technology was involved, and the process was quick. "Well, yes, but it couldn't happen here..." Germany was once soul of the Renaissance and Enlightenment in Europe, the producers of philosophers and composers and great literary masters, of scientific genius and political radicalism. In just three years in our modern twentieth century, one man imposed on that nation one of the most brutal dictatorships in history and sent millions off to camps and gas chambers while the rest put on brown uniforms and raised their arms in praise and salute to him. "Well, yes, but that was the Germans, not us. Besides, it couldn't even happen in Germany again ..." Within my own liftime, in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave, a black man couldn't use the same _toilet_ that I could, and ministers of God justified it from the pulpit. [...] Young people are sucked into cults and come out smiling and glassy-eyed, devoid of any though except what they are told -- or own sons and daughters, the products of our own culture -- and they fight any attempt to bring them back. And if, tomorrow, the drug trade brought out a drug that was instantly and totally addicting and turned users into happy, mindless slaves, a substantial portion of Americans -- and all other nationalities as well -- would flock to stuff it into themselves, believing they could handle it. We've seen the start of this with PCP and rock cocaine, but they are as the crossbow is to the hydrogen bomb compared with what modern science can and will concoct. Just recently one of the leading researchers in brain chemistry noted that our knowledge of brain chemistry was increasing at such a rate that within a mere generation we would have a "designer" drug problem that would make our current problems seem so slight that the eighties would be looked upon with nostalgia. Sure -- they're doing this research to see if they can retard aging and maybe save people from the horrible fates of Alzheimer's and Hunitington's disease, and they might. The price: drugs that can and will turn just about anybody into just about anything, mentally, and emotionally, the chemist chooses -- and that are instantly addicting. That isn't science fiction talking -- that's scientists, and they're talking about stuff they are beginning to create in their research labs even as I write this in mid-1987. [...] I have never written about the far distant future, nor do most SF writers; if you can't grasp that, you are inevitably going to be a victim if you're not already. [...] -- Jack Chalker, in the afterword to _Dance Band On The Titanic_. From archive (archive) Path: sssab.se!isy!liuida!sunic!mcsun!uunet!jarthur!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!apple!oliveb!amdahl!drivax!g1 From: g1@drivax.UUCP (Bruce Holloway) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers Subject: Re: Jack Chalker Message-ID: <99VG04G@drivax.UUCP> Date: 28 Mar 90 06:51:28 GMT References: <1377@ac.dal.ca> Organization: Digital Research, Monterey CA Lines: 33 Novels in which transformation is NOT a factor? "War of Shadows" -- about modern bio terrorism. "The Devil's Voyage" -- Slightly fictionalized account of a sea disaster linked with the testing and detonation of the world's first atomic bomb. "And The Devil Will Drag You Under" -- the main characters inhabit the bodies of other people in their quest for the jewel of Baal or some such. I guess this could count either way. The first two books of "The Rings of the Master" series don't contain any real changes that I can recall, but they do eventually come. "Demons at Rainbow Bridge", his latest novel, has no transformations. I believe his first novel, the one about the Vietnam guy who stumbles into a rivalry between two super-beings, had no viewpoint characters who changed. I believe both of the super-beings could possess people or assume their shape. So; it is a common theme in his work. I enjoy it, I read it, and it's still rock and roll to me. The plots are the main thing; they change substantially from work to work. A theme doth not a plot make. - Bruce -- ******************************************************************************* * Bruce Holloway - Terminal Netnews Addict uunet!amdahl!drivax!g1 * * ALBATROSS @ Delphi and People/Link * ************Cuzqoirm mluyh, "Ulu! Buyrf xumh megjux ubb nuth juq!"************* From archive (archive) Path: herkules.sssab.se!isy!liuida!sunic!mcsun!uunet!samsung!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ncar!mephisto!udel!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!o.gp.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ap1i+ From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers Subject: Re: fat, slow, blind, stupid, sex addicted females Message-ID: Date: 5 Sep 90 02:27:36 GMT References: <165@ubeaut.oz.au>, <5761@plains.NoDak.edu> Organization: Class of '92, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 59 In-Reply-To: <5761@plains.NoDak.edu> > Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf-lovers: 4-Sep-90 fat, slow, blind, > stupid, s.. Michael J. Hennebry@plai (730) > >Now if you want to talk about female degradation, read some Jack > Chalker. > >He seems to have a fascination with fat, slow, blind, stupid, sex > addicted > >females. _Flux and Anchor_ as a point is case. > Huh? Have you any other cases to point at? I don't remember any from > The Lords of the Diamond, And the Devil Will Drag You Under, > and the Well World Series. I only read the first of the Flux and Anchor > series and don't remember any fsbssaf in it either. Oh boy.... technically you're correct; only Flux&Anchor has females with *all* of the above properties. However, list of similar examples follows: (no spoilers) Flux&Anchor: The definitive fluxgirls. True, in the first book there are only a couple of high-power perverts running around dominating people with magic and sex. But it degenerates steadily from book to book. Well World: One of the female characters described being in a corporate brothel; all of the whores were kept on massive hormone rations. That was in the first book, I believe. You can also count the girl kept as a slave by the "sponge" cartel. The planet of tailed amazon women, whatever it was called. When they were due to bear children, they were invited to plush "honeymoon hotels" and fed aphrodisiacs, then dumped in with the slave men. The bird-species whose females went into mad heat every so often. Chalker specifically said that this kept the patriarchal government in place; the females could only run away for a short time, before they came back slobbering and panting. Lords of the Diamond: In the first book, another bunch of whores kept on hormones. In the fourth, people got transformed into stupid sex-slaves for crimes against the state. (Apparently males turned female when this was done to them. Something inherent in the human psyche, Chalker says.) Changewinds: More of all of the above. Quintara Marathon (only the first has been published): Even more -- genetically engineered whores. Built without opposable thumbs, yet. And the Devil Will Drag You Under: Your point; I think Chalker stayed clean on this one. But *every* other Chalker novel I can think of -- and I've read most of them, god help me -- has fluxgirls or equivalent. ... Having listed all that, let me say that Chalker is not ipso facto a pervert. I think he just has a very low opinion of humanity in general. For his side of the story, see the essay in his collection _Dance Band on the Titanic_. --Z From archive (archive) Path: herkules.sssab.se!isy!liuida!sunic!mcsun!uunet!crdgw1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!dali.cs.montana.edu!milton!uw-beaver!cornell!biar!trebor From: trebor@biar.UUCP (Robert J Woodhead) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers Subject: Re: fat, slow, blind, stupid, sex addicted females Message-ID: <1179@biar.UUCP> Date: 5 Sep 90 04:51:32 GMT References: <165@ubeaut.oz.au> <5761@plains.NoDak.edu> Organization: Biar Games, Inc. Lines: 29 hennebry@plains.NoDak.edu (Michael J. Hennebry) writes: >Huh? Have you any other cases to point at? I don't remember any from >The Lords of the Diamond, And the Devil Will Drag You Under, >and the Well World Series. I only read the first of the Flux and Anchor >series and don't remember any fsbssaf in it either. All earlier works, it would be noted. Chalker can be a good writer when he wants to be, but the last several series of his (Flux & Anchor, Changewinds, Dancing Gods) have all had mind control/domination as central themes. IMHO he's suffering from Morcockosis, the major symptom of which is writing the same book 30 times or so. It's a pity, really, because 1) he can write and 2) he has written the absolutely definitive SF book on mind control, "The Identity Matrix," which is out and out chilling in it's implications. As someone who values his mind quite highly, the implications of a technology that could modify memory/emotions/etc is horrifying -- because if someone had that technology and used it on you, _you_would_never_know_it_had_ been_done. This is the stuff nightmares are made of -- and that shows that Jack can write with the best of them when he choses to -- which he doesn't. Pity. -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Robert J Woodhead, Biar Games, Inc. !uunet!biar!trebor trebor@biar.UUCP | | "The Force. It surrounds us; It enfolds us; It gets us dates on Saturday | | Nights." -- Obi Wan Kenobi, Famous Jedi Knight and Party Animal. | From archive (archive) Path: herkules.sssab.se!isy!liuida!sunic!mcsun!uunet!crdgw1!crd.ge.com!meltsner From: meltsner@crd.ge.com (Kenneth J Meltsner) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers Subject: Re: fat, slow, blind, stupid, sex addicted females Message-ID: <1990Sep25.144237@crd.ge.com> Date: 25 Sep 90 18:42:37 GMT References: <165@ubeaut.oz.au>, Sender: news@crdgw1.crd.ge.com Reply-To: meltsner@crd.ge.com Organization: GE Research and Development Center Lines: 30 More impressive is Chalker's fascination with body transformations, a concept that played a significant role in all of his books I read. Now, he may have moved beyond this -- I did stop reading him a few series ago -- but it seemed like he was absolutely obsessed with the idea of switching bodies around, and especially through some sort of mental or scientific power: The Diamond Series -- every planet had its own variant on body transformation through the Diamond organism. the Well World Series -- the whole series is obsessed with body (and reality) transformations Dancers in the Afterglow -- the effects of the aliens on the human population The Laughing Gods series -- poof, new bodies for the guy and girl, and off they go And the Devil ... -- alternate worlds and new bodies And more that I can't remember the titles of. -- =============================================================================== Ken Meltsner | meltsner@crd.ge.com (518) 387-6391 GE Research and Development Center | P.O. Box 8, Room K1/MB207 | Nothing I say should be attributed Schenectady, NY 12301 | to my employer, and probably vice-versa ========"Schenectady: The City That Used to Light and Haul the World"========= From rec.arts.sf.written Thu Nov 14 10:23:05 1991 Path: herkules.sssab.se!isy!liuida!sunic!seunet!mcsun!uunet!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!milton!sumax!ole!thebes!polari!lorbit!Rayek From: Rayek@lorbit.UUCP (Rayek of the Sun Folk) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written Subject: Jack Chalker/_Web of the Chozen_ Message-ID: Date: 11 Nov 91 02:27:07 GMT Organization: LOW ORBIT Science and Fiction Lines: 11 >Reading Web of the Chozen now, worth finishing not a whole lot more. That was written as a contract breaker and is _not_ intended to be taken seriously. He thought it was a laugh riot. Most of the people who read it don't get the joke. It's also his least favourite book. Two cents from an interview we ran with him a while ago. - R'ykandar -- Casino Manager Rayek@lorbit.UUCP - sumax!polari!lorbit!rayek "Lightfinger" Rayek's Friendly Casino: 206/528-0948, Seattle, Washington.