From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Sep 23 21:10:27 1996 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 01:17:34 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #152 tariqas-digest Sunday, 22 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 152 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Rice Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:46:43 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: sex in full moon Dear Imaan, Assalamu alaikum :) On Sun, 22 Sep 1996, Imaan Joshi wrote: > >ahhh, not naive at all! :) > >if you asked me (and i know you didn't! :), i'd say that you should not > >only hope, you should /expect/ to have communion that is beyond your > >wildest dreams-- whole, holy! :) > >with love, > >carol > > kinda hard to have in this day and age tho:-) I speak from indirect > experience, i.e from the experience shard with me by friends...but then > again, many of them were just looking for fun too, so...BTW, I am very > surprised on this list; my impression of men before this was rather > scummy:-) I have had friends, male, who have told me " Offer a guy free sex > with no strings attached, no matter how ugly you are, he will not turn you > down."...see what I mean? Sex, not love:-) and Allah[swt] knows best. I remember reading that the attraction that a husband and wife feel for each other can be a small reflection of their attraction to the Divine.... certainly, some Divine qualities are reflected, to different extents in each of us (Mercy, Patience, Love, Justice....) so how can we not love these aspects if we should see them reflected in our partner? :) As for sex, as I'm unmarried, I can't really say, but perhaps some of the same goes for that.... Allah knows best.... sexual attraction can be either a curse of a blessing, depending on its context, etc.... If it brings a pious husband and pious wife closer together, then surely it is a blessing.... Wassalam :) Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:50:04 +1000 (EST) Subject: Wisdom of the Prophet: The Word of Wisdom The Word of Wisdom The Prophet [p.] said, "The word of wisdom is the stray of the believer, who has the better right to it wherever it may be found." [p.] = "peace be with him" ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:51:22 +1000 (EST) Subject: Wisdom of the Prophet: Good and Bad Companions Good and Bad Companions The Prophet [p.] said, "Good companions and bad companions are like sellers of musk and the furnace of the smithy. You lose nothing from the musk seller, whether you buy some or smell some or are imbued with its fragrance. The furnace of the smithy, on the other hand, burns your house and your clothes, or you get a noxious odor." [p.] = "peace be with him" ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:18:29 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Shaytan Salamu 'alaikum w.w. Perhaps the words allude to the fact that during the setting and rising of the sun there are paganic forms of worship of the Sun and what-is-not-God , also perhaps there are practices which are practised during that time. At 18:01 9/21/96 -0400, you wrote: >Friends > >I've seen it written that one does not do salat during the rising or >setting of the sun because the sun rises/sets on the horns of satan. > >Often it is useful to view "evil" or "satan" as code words for ego. This >gives a different perspective to the sex at full moon thread, but seems to >shed no light on sun rise. > >Can any one illuminate the inner meaning of prohibiting prayer at >sun rise/set. > >Allah is kind/kindness >Arsalaan Fay > > ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:37:44 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women As Salamu'alaikum waRahmatullahi waBarakatuu! During the time of the Prophet Muhammad s.a.wassalam there was no curtain separating the men from the women.This was instituted much much later and yes some women certainly like it perhaps because of obstrusive behaviour of some men who are always scanning women up and down and their mental habits dont get suspended in the mosque. If there are Muslim women lecturers in the mosque I assure you except for the musallah the women actually do dominate the mosque.In Singapore or Malaysia when women go to the mosque for lectures they come in droves and this is very regular in mosques.If there is a good lecturer whether men or women, we always stick around to hear some inspiring words.My impression that Muslim women are much more worshipful than Muslim men .I have seen them in droves looking so spiritual Muslim men and Muslim women should always smile at each other.The Prophet always had a smile on his face. In our part of the world there is no Purdah system in the way that you have in Pakistan or India.Many mosques in Singapore are named after women for example the old Masjid Khadijah, the old Masjid Fatimah.Masjid Aminah which was on TOL was replaced by Masjid Darul Aman where names of women lecturers are often seen on the activity board like in the dozens of new mosques in Singapore.There are more women employed in Mosques than men because of pre-primary, childcare activities in the new mosques.There are at least two female social workers in new mosques .Women workers in mosques have always been a feature of Islam right from the time of early Islam. "Return the salutation with a better one" mentioned in the Quran is based on the Quranic thread to return evil with good and to return good with something even better.The Quran is the constitution of Islam but it is only discerning minds that are revealing themselves through the Internet and here ,that best understand the Quran.I am learning a tremendous lot from them. Could we start a new threat on "Women in History and in Islam" ? At 03:58 9/22/96 +1000, you wrote: > > >On Sat, 21 Sep 1996 MFKimball@aol.com wrote: > >> I find that it is very uncomfortable for me to be in mosques where men tend >> to act as if there are no women in the room. The very sad truth is that most >> mosques I have been to have been like this. I can imagine what it must have >> felt like for blacks when racism was so prevalent, and they were treated like >> non-people. It must have been similar to the Muslim gatherings I have been >> to. Even in some Sufi gatherings I have experineced this. When a few of us >> were gathering to leave the house where a Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi gathering >> took place, the host and his teenage son said goodbye to my husband, but not >> me. My gosh, to say goodbye is not a sexual act! I believe we are only >> fooling ourselves if we think this is not a form of discrimination against >> women. >> >> I recall the Prophet is said to have greeted people with a like greeting or >> one better than they had greeted him with. > >Assalamu alaikum, Michelle, > >Sometimes this behaviour is cultural.... Allah knows best if it is a form >of discrimination against women - to me, I think it probably depends on the >cultural context. In some cultures, it might be seen as such, in other >cultures, perhaps not, since in those cultures the women perhaps also do >not greet the men, Allah knows best (i.e. it wouldn't just be one way).... > >In our Islamic society at university, there was/is always a curtain >separating the women from the men. I felt this might be a form of >discrimination against women, perhaps, since maybe they couldn't see the >speaker etc. When I investigated further, to my surprise, I found out >many Muslim women liked the curtain, since it gave them a feeling of >privacy. > >Wassalam, > >Fariduddien > > ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 21:57:04 EDT Subject: Re: sex in full moon Hello Michael, :) >This idea of 'love making'; I don't get it? You see, I have some >strong emotions about my wife. I call these emotions love. We have >sex. I do not 'love' her *more* while having it, so how could one call >it making love? Wondering how i got myself into this. Love is /giving/ all of oneself to the beloved. When we do that, we /create/ love. Love is not a passive thing. It is not static.... it moves, it flows... love making is a reflection of Love... it is pure movement, it is synchronicity of two becoming One... as the butterflies dance... as the waves of the ocean, becoming one with the shore... Having sex, with the sole intention of having an orgasm, receiving pleasure, is not love making. Love making does not necessarily create or enhance love between two people (although its very difficult for me to believe that it doesn't! :) ... it touches, it reflects, Divine Love. peace & love, carol ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 21:57:04 EDT Subject: Re: sex in full moon Hello Imaan Shivani Joshi! :) >>> So perhaps >>>when a man uses nice words, one might hope that he has good thought >>about >>>the experience too:-), that it is *more* than just *sex*. A bit >naive, I >>>know, but...a girl can hope, can't she:-)? >>Imaan Shivani Joshi >> >>ahhh, not naive at all! :) >>if you asked me (and i know you didn't! :), i'd say that you should >not >>only hope, you should /expect/ to have communion that is beyond your >>wildest dreams-- whole, holy! :) >>with love, >>carol >> > > kinda hard to have in this day and age tho:-) I speak from >indirect experience, i.e from the experience shard with me by friends...but Of course we all experience things in our own way... but i believe it is absolutely possible -- in a loving relationship, there will be Union of two souls... Of course men are interested in one thing, and of course most will do just about anything to get it. :) But, that is but one aspect of their being -- it is not the /whole/ of them. We become whole (holy) as we integrate these aspects of our being. Our 'animal desires' are not something evil... but without integrating the whole being, we are but shadows of our real selves. This is, as i see it, when sex becomes far less than it /can/ be. When our Spirit and body become as One, consciously becoming One with another Spirit/body... there is Love created... (btw, this has very little to do with orgasm or physical pleasure, per se) >then again, many of them were just looking for fun too, so...BTW, I am very I think this is an important point. Whatever it is we /seek/, i believe we will find it. >surprised on this list; my impression of men before this was rather >scummy:-) I have had friends, male, who have told me " Offer a guy >free sex with no strings attached, no matter how ugly you are, he will not turn >you down."...see what I mean? Sex, not love:-) and Allah[swt] knows best. Yes... i see what you mean. :) And certainly most relationships between a man and a woman, at some point, deal with the issue of sex -- either overtly, or many times, in a non-verbal, even unconscious way. I've always had good relationships with men. But, i feel more /comfortable/ in a circle of women. Fortunately (or not! ;), it is not always comfort that i seek. :) Getting back to your point... i imagine that men can learn to 'say anything' to 'get laid'. If someone says they are 'making love', it does not necessarily mean that they are in the frame of mind those words imply... BUT, it sure doesn't hurt! ;) I think many of our actions/interactions involve our intentions... many times we have several intentions at one time! :) Sometimes, we become surprised when what it is we thought we wanted, was not what we really wanted afterall. Best to you. :) peace & love, carol ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:19:16 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women Assalamu alaikum, On Sat, 21 Sep 1996 MFKimball@aol.com wrote: > Fariduddien > I agree with you that "sometimes this behavior is cultural" (of excluding > women). In the mosques I've been to outside of America I did not see this > phenomenon (curtains separating women). I have no idea where it originated, > certainly not in the community of the Prophet. Yes, this is my understanding too.... > I know that some women like the "privacy". I would guess that these are > mostly not American women, and that such a set up (curtain separating women) > would not be viewed as a welcoming feature if one wants to be open to the > outside community, rather than just perpetuatiny a specific cultural group in > America. > > American women have too long a history of struggling to be seen and heard and > to gain rights (however distorted those may have become) to find appeal in an > exclusionary system. Actually, to my surprise, this was the view of an Australian woman who had (at the time) recently converted to Islam. I was discussing this matter with her (this was several years ago, by the way), and she told me that she and a number of other women liked the curtain.... I was president of the Islamic society at our university at the time, so because of her comment, I left it alone - I had been planning to investigate the possibility of removing it. For many years, I disliked gender-segregated groups, but I suppose now I have started to get used to it. (It is not my background either.) Wassalam, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:34:02 -0400 Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women hello Michelle and all, in peace. In a message dated 96-09-21 12:05:42 EDT, you write: > My gosh, to say goodbye is not a sexual act! I believe we are only >fooling ourselves if we think this is not a form of discrimination against >women. > >I recall the Prophet is said to have greeted people with a like greeting or >one better than they had greeted him with. > >Best Wishes, >Michelle Kimball > > hello Michelle and all, iOPO: Of course,what is behind this nonrecognition can be the presumably good intention not to send out sexually-oriented messages to the women present. And perhaps this is a decision or "solution" of how not to insult women, on the part of men who have been taught that this is the way (by friends, parents, culture, religion, etc), or who feel they cannot have any contact without its being filled with sexual innuendo. You are pointing out how such an approach may actually be experienced from the part of the women involved. This is in general information that men do not receive in a form which is always well understood. So thank you. Your last comment (your recollection) made me wonder if you say goodbye yourself? Of course from what you say that would be done in a way that is not a matter of trying to flirt with the hosts, but simply a way of saying goodbye. If so, how it is received and responded to? ... yes, excommunication through nonrecognition is an old punishment (as when the Greeks banished misbehavors from the city-states) .... very powerful .... in peace, Jinavamsa ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:34:00 -0400 Subject: Re: sex in full moon hello Imaan and all, In a message dated 96-09-21 02:21:05 EDT, you write: <<<<>>>>>>>>> >of course perhaps part of it also has to do >with [ and I speak from experience here of having had male friends who speak >this way] not being referred to as just an object to be used. So perhaps >when a man uses nice words, one might hope that he has good thought about >the experience too:-), that it is *more* than just *sex*. A bit naive, I >know, but...a girl can hope, can't she:-)? >Imaan Shivani Joshi >sci30342@leonis.nus.sg > He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad >desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi] hello Imaan and all, iOPO: Thank you for this posting. bravery/honesty has so many forms. ... as for that question, a girl can definitely hope. Boys (or men) will show you what they are like, but not especially in the first few minutes or days. (sometimes they do, but not always ...). The words that are used are but one aspect of their showing how they think and act, what values they have, including some which reflect the culture in which they were raised, and how they think of women and of their own bodily/sexual existence. If you are not in a rush, you will often be able to notice that before getting yourself into a situation you'll wish you had better not walked into. Naivete can be a blinding ourselves to what is clear, wishing it were otherwise, because we want some particular something. But if you keep hoping, with your eyes, ears, *and* heart remaining attentive, you will perhaps be sensing very strongly who this person is facing you (caring? jerk? out for a good lay? [if I may use the vernacular] ... ) .... may you find happiness within yourself and within relationship, in peace, Jinavamsa ------------------------------ From: Rabia Kathleen Seidel Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:55:17 -0400 Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women Michael Moore wrote: > >I just don't know what to do with Muslim women. I mean, If I am walking down >a sidewalk on a nice sunny day and a Muslim woman is comming towards me, >what should I do? Ignore her? Give her salaams? What? Salaam aleikum! Your question raises another: How do you recognize, in a heterogeneous culture, a Muslim woman on the sidewalk? "I see by your outfit that you are a Muslim!"? ;-) There are many different ways of practicing the fundamental principle of modesty, besides those that are characteristic of predominantly Muslim cultures. And another question: Should there be any difference in the way we interact with Muslim friends, acquaintances and strangers, and with friends, acquaintances and strangers from other faiths? I don't think so. I do feel that we should greet each other with sincerity, warmth, respect, and sensitivity. For those who share an understanding of the meaning of the words, a hand to the heart and a warm "Salaam aleikum!" is one of the loveliest greetings I can think of. MFKimball@aol.com wrote: > > I don't think it is a good idea for us to base our behavior on what other > people will think. As long as you act out of integrity and honesty, what > other people think is their problem not yours. Please greet women, if that > feels natural to you, with confidence and integrity, rather than ignore them > out of paranoia. I agree! Rabia ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 20:22:17 +0100 Subject: Woman greeting men I decided to reverse this. When walking down the street here in Moscow, Idaho, it is pretty friendly place and strangers smile at each other, whether men or woman and riding down the road in neighboring small towns, everyone waves. It certainly was not like this in larger cities, like California unless people know each other. Still as a woman, I sort of notice what kind of person is approaching, and there is a certain instinct when i sort of know when just not to look at the approaching person. I may not be judging right, but I figure that as a woman it is a certain cautious attitude that comes from recognizing certain looks and hints of threat. Usually though Moscow is a very safe place to live and I feel fortunate to live here. And if it is night and I don't trust what i see i invariably walk on the other side of the street, or am just a little more careful. My friend John use to tell me when he saw a woman coming down the street towards him at night, he would deliberately walk on the other side of the street when approaching just out of courtesy to her. I think this is rare sensitivity as a man. Any other thoughts about this. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Rabia Kathleen Seidel Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:27:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Shaytan arsalaan fay wrote: > > Friends > > I've seen it written that one does not do salat during the rising or > setting of the sun because the sun rises/sets on the horns of satan... > > Can any one illuminate the inner meaning of prohibiting prayer at > sun rise/set. > > Allah is kind/kindness Hi, Arsalaan! >From Deciphering the Signs of God, by Annemarie Schimmel (SUNY, 1994) "The most evident manifestation of the all-embracing and permeating light is the sun; but the sun, like the other heavenly bodies, belongs to the 'afilin' (Sura 6:76), 'those that set', to whom Abraham turned first until he understood that one should worship not these transient powers but rather their Creator, as Sura 41:37 warns people 'not to fall down before the sun and the moon' but before Him whose signs they are. Islam clearly broke with any previous solar religion, and the order of the ritual prayer takes great care to have the morning prayer performed before sunrise and the evening prayer after sunset lest any connection with sun-worship be imagined (and yet their timing perfectly fits into the cosmic rhythm). The break with the solar year and its replacement by a lunar year underlines this new orientation." (pp. 13-14) The image of the sun rising between the horns of two demons is elaborated in great, arcane detail in Henry Corbin's Avicenna and the Visionary Recital. I wouldn't even _try_ to paraphrase or interpret it! Here's a taste of Avicenna's vision: "Then, cutting straight across toward the Orient, thou wilt come upon the sun rising between the two troops (lit., the two 'horns') of the Demon. For the Demon has two troops: one that flies, another that plods. The troop that plods contains two tribes: a tribe that has the ferocity of beasts of prey, while the other has the bestiality of quadrupeds. Between the two there is perpetual war, and both dwell in the left side of the Orient. As for the demons who fly, their quarters are in the right side of the Orient. They are not all of the same constitution... some of them are constituted of two natures, others of three, others of four..." Ashk olsun -- Let it become love! Rabia ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:14:15 +0800 Subject: Where Kahuna fit in? Assalaaaaamu alaikum :) Someone wrote about a sincere and warm greeting of salam, and I hope I convey the sound of the salam greeting (the Malay version). About Brahma and Tao, I find Brahma is similar with Abraham (Ibrahim), and Tao is similar to Tawhid. This is again another novice assumption that there is connection between Brahma, Tao and Tawhid/Islam (religion of Abraham). But where does Kahuna fit in this scheme? And the Great North American Spiritualism? - --maarof ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 21:52:31 -0700 Subject: Devils at Dawn/Dusk i feel this stuff reflects a lot of older folk beliefs of the near and = middle east, probably a lot of it contradictory. In some early Syrian = fasting practices, demons were said to be active during sunset, so one = had a meal about an hour after sunset (see Testament of Adam, and the = alchemical Appolonius of Tyana). In the Apocalypse of Peter, and again = in Appolonius, prayer at the sunset hour was recommended because it was = "just before the doors of heaven closed". But then in Manichaeism, it = was during sunrise and sunset that the armies of light and dark battled. Kind of strange... i recall now, well before i knew any of this stuff or = was involved in Sufism, but rather preparing to be a Zen monk, there was = a period in my practice when i could only sleep during the hour or so of = dawn and the hour or so of dusk. Nothing intentional on my part, only = that i would become extremely tired at those times, but really refreshed = for the other 22. Ah, the joys of the path. Blessings, Nur ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:16:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Changes and Transitions Greetings Craig, > Shah mentions a lot of other things, but no sources, so it's not very = convincing=20 > from an academic point of view. =20 IMHO, it is not solely an issue of academia for me but rather that = someone is presenting what are presumably facts under a mantle of = spiritual authority which can not be founded on the evidence at hand. = Because Idries Shah is who he is, and i have the utmost respect for his = teaching and storytelling, his historical speculations in the realm of = comparative religion are therefore charged by his stature. At one time, = i also was very much taken with the historical romance that Shah offers = us, but i find that much of what he claims collapses under close = scrutiny. Here are my responses to Shah's points about St. Francis, as you listed = them: > 1. St. Francis spoke Provencal, the language of the troubadors It was also the language of a lot of jerks and thieves and screwy = politicians and clergy. So what. The other speculation that there is a = direct connection between the troubadors and the Sufis is not an = established fact. Because there are similarities between various = spiritual traditions does not necessarily postulate a direct influence = or transmission of one on the other. Didn't Jung try to describe such = synchronization in history via his theory of a collective unconscious? > 2. He was a troubador and poet before starting the Franciscan order No evidence to support this whatsoever, and i do not recall anything = like this in St. Bonaventure's Life of St. Francis. > 3. Some of his poetry resembles Rumi's This proves nothing - and personally i find no resemblance. Besides, = was Rumi ever translated into Provencal in the middle ages? One in a = billion likelihood. And can we really believe Francis knew Persian well = enough to read Rumi to assume imitation? Moreover, Francis and Rumi = were alive at the same time. Rumi was not only unknown to Europe but = even to Muslim Spain then. Also, Francis followed a strict imitatio = Christi of celibate, radical poverty through-and-through which was quite = at odds with the religious behavior of Sufism. =20 > 4. He travelled extensively in Spain, where Islam was a major = influence and > there were many Sufi orders Francis first major ecstatic encounter with God which would guide him = for the remainder of his life of vision, ecstasy, poverty, the stigmata, = and prophecy happened at the age of 25 before any travels. > 5. He travelled to Syria (hmmm. Syriac Christian influence as well = as Sufism?) Any Christian visiting the Holy Lands would undoubtedly wish to make = pilgrimage to the landmarks associated with Jesus's life, such as the = Church of Mark where the last supper is alleged to have taken place and = which has been run by the Syrian Church to this day (i happened to = interview the patriarch of this church on the Syrian practice of the = prayer of the heart some years ago). Francis would undoubtedly have met = Syrian Christians of the Jacobite, Monophysite, Melekite rites who = populated areas of Christian pilgrimage.=20 > 6. He called his order the "Lesser Bretheren", while at that time the = "Greater > Bretheren" was known to be a Sufi order. i've never seen such a designation of "Greater" referring to the = Brethren. If it is the historical Ikhwan al-Safa (the Brethren or = Fellowship of Purity) from Basra that Shah is trying to make an = association with, then it would not be correct to identify them with the = classical Sufi tariqas because the Ikhwan were heavily influenced by = Ismaeli Shi'ia and were a group unto themselves. On the other hand, the = epistles (or some of them) of the Ikhwan were known by Ibn Arabi during = his days in Spain. But the Ikhwan as a circle of initiates seems to have = been limited to the Middle East. > 7. The caped frock worn by members of the order was identical to that = worn > by some Sufi orders in North Africa and Spain (?) i'm assuming you are referring to "cap" like a hood instead of "cape". = This would have to be researched. Frocks with hoods were worn by monks = long before Francis. > Did Syrian Christianity have a big influence on the ultimate form of = the Catholic=20 > church? I would suspect the ideas of Syrian Christianity (especially via the = corpus of texts composed under the pseudonym Dionysius the Aeropagite = which now seem to have been composed by a Greek-speaking Monophysite = Syrian mystic influenced by the late neoplatonism of Proclus in = Alexandria) had some place in its shaping (especially through Thomas = Aquinas). And of course the Dionysian writings were a major source of = inspiration for Meister Eckhart, the author of the Cloud of Unknowing = (the title of this text is taken from Dionysius), Erigenia, the = Rhineland mystics, the Victorines, Jacob Boehme, the Italian Renaissance = alchemists such as Pico and Ficino, etc. But so did Manichaeism due to = the traces of it found in St. Augustine's works (especially the Two = Cities). Otherwise, any direct influences would at best be very minimal = since Syrian Monophystism and Nestorianism were both condemned before = the shaping of what we now know as the Catholic Church. > Have you found any direct connections between Syrian Christianity and = what=20 > ultimately became known as Sufism?=20 i feel i have, but please accept my apologies that i do not feel = compelled at this time to share very much about it because it remains = part of my ongoing research, and especially with some 4th through 7th = century Syrian Christian mystics who have written about a group of = "perfected ones" known as the Friends of the Pact. The last historical = reference i found of this Christian mystic group is by a Nestorian = mystic near Mosul in modern day Iraq. > I find the idea that Sufism predated Islam very appealing, perhaps = even an=20 > intuitively obvious truth, yet others in this list (yourself = included?) would say that=20 > this is nonsense. i hope i am able to convey my difference between what my personal belief = may be (ie. that Sufism predates the arrival of the Prophet Mohammad, = pbuh) and what the historical evidence seems to point to (ie., Sufism as = an outgrowth of Islamic piety). In addition, when approaching this from = esoteric principles, it seems important to differentiate what are = influences/adaptations in a cultural/social context from what is = spiritual transmission from one tradition into another. The former we = can determine from historical records such as literature and archeology; = however, the latter, transmission, is not something to be determined = horizontally but only vertically. The crux of the issue is really being = very clear about this differentiation before proclaiming far-reaching = conclusions. So although i feel very comfortable in stating that Syrian = Christianity influenced early Sufism, i can not venture into the realm = of saying that there was an esoteric transmission of Syrian spirituality = into Islam. Blessings Nur ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #152 *****************************