From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Wed Sep 18 14:29:55 1996 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:27:52 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #142 tariqas-digest Sunday, 15 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 142 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Asim Jalis Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 08:59:31 CDT Subject: logic and reason millerry@teleport.com writes: > A question has recently plagued me and I was wondering wheather you folks > could help me out. Only In the past couple years have I been into > religion, however, I have always been interested in science. Can logic > and reason, powerful tools in science, be just as useful in discovering > divine truths? Or is intuition and experience more valued in religion? I think logic and reasoning have a role to play but their importance in science and everywhere else is frequently over-rated. But they have a smaller role to play in both science and in spiritual matters. The role is more in discarding falsehoods than in discovering truths (in both areas). For example in science the currently accepted models of realities and even the past rejected ones are too beautiful and elegant to have been the product of logic, in fact too sublime to have been anything less than spiritual inspiration. Logic can only disprove things, never prove them; verify perhaps but not prove for ever. Newtonian physics is an example. (See Popper for more details.) Asim ------------------------------ From: Rabia Kathleen Seidel Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:21:29 -0400 Subject: Re: ignorant question... maarof wrote: > Of course there are capable people in this group. Most are observers, > and have seen the questions and the answers before. Some are too lazy > to give their interpretation of issues. Salaam aleikum. I think that we need to be careful when it comes to drawing conclusions about people's reasons for not expressing their opinions in the form of postings to this or any other list or newsgroup. There are many possibilities for such reluctance or inability. Some may have expressed their opinions in the past, been flamed, and become gun-shy. Many may have other activities and commitments that are more pressing than active participation in the list, but still want to keep up on current discussions. Others may be inclined to consider a question for several days, or even weeks, before they feel prepared to offer an opinion; and with the speed at which discussion on the Internet often occurs, the opportunity to respond may seem to have passed by the time a person is ready to do so. Some of us (myself included) may feel fairly conservative about expressing our opinions, either because of a natural tendency to be reserved, because we don't feel qualified, or for other reasons. Some may find that their opinions were precisely expressed by someone else, and feel no need to repeat them. Others may have such strong and detailed convictions about a subject that it would take too much time, or too long a message, to express them adequately. Ashk olsun -- Let it become love! Rabia Kathleen Seidel ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 07:36:25 -0700 Subject: RUMI 2587 WHERE HAVE YOU GONE the settler of my soul did you fly away or hide in your home as soon as you saw the loyalty of my heart you turned around and flew like a bird your vision captured the wandering of our spirits then away from the crowd you journeyed in solitude you went away so quick as though you were a morning breath carrying a flower's aroma but you really didn't fly away as a bird or a breeze you were created from God's light you went immersed in His glow ghazal number 2587, translated February 16, 1992, by Nader Khalili. tanzen ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:43:11 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: logic and reason Beautiful analysis, Asim.Salam At 08:59 9/15/96 CDT, you wrote: >millerry@teleport.com writes: >> A question has recently plagued me and I was wondering wheather you folks >> could help me out. Only In the past couple years have I been into >> religion, however, I have always been interested in science. Can logic >> and reason, powerful tools in science, be just as useful in discovering >> divine truths? Or is intuition and experience more valued in religion? > >I think logic and reasoning have a role to play but their importance in >science and everywhere else is frequently over-rated. But they have a >smaller role to play in both science and in spiritual matters. The role is >more in discarding falsehoods than in discovering truths (in both areas). > >For example in science the currently accepted models of realities and even >the past rejected ones are too beautiful and elegant to have been the >product of logic, in fact too sublime to have been anything less than >spiritual inspiration. Logic can only disprove things, never prove them; >verify perhaps but not prove for ever. Newtonian physics is an example. >(See Popper for more details.) > > >Asim > ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:53:40 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Honours student Blues Dear Joshi,Assalamu'alaikum waRahmatullahi waBarakatuhu to you and everybody. I forgot to tell you that apart from having a shaykh there is a saying that one pull from Allah or jahbah (attraction) is more powerful than all shayks combined.But of course very few are so fortunate.Sufficicient is Muhammad the Mercy unto the Universe s.a.w when our awaited shaykh does not turn up for reasons best known to Providence.Indeed shuyukh too are clinging on to his Sunnah.It can take a long long time to wait for a shaykh .It can just be a moment more.Insha'Allah. At 21:10 9/1/96 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Joshi, > I kiss the seperation, the allienation the illusion and all of your >trials. What a wonderful thing it is have a shayke to wait for. And what >an ardous lesson this whole business of tolerance while hearts eternally >ache and the pain is so delicious. > > What is there is to chopping wood? What is there to carrying water. >How to transmute the mundane into the extrodiary. What is this about pea >soup. And our greatest teachers all being amonst many other things cooks. >I mean real cooks, with real latels, and the simple un dramatic stuff of >soup, lentals and peas and then the rich yet overlooked honor of the >prayers. Of standing alone before your creator---of the declaration, the >witnessing > >how rich is this and puny our suffering. All there is to do is love without >judgement. Lookfor simple words, look for idiots in love, and fools who >spend or give everything away before the end of day. Thank you my dear >teacher, thank you my new friend. Love to you always. Love. Jabriel >----------------------------------------- > Jabriel Hanafi > Pivotal Point Dynamics > > > ------------------------------ From: ASHA101@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:59:05 -0400 Subject: Re: logic and reason Can logic and reason, powerful tools in science, be just as useful in discovering divine truths? Or is intuition and experience more valued in religion? Logic and reason are some tools for illumination, but first one is awakening, to the degree you are awake, to that degree the tools of illumination are of some real use. Awakening comes by going deep into yourself, to those places where there isn't much light, like deep in those caves of our ancestors who put images on the walls and shown candles upon them ... so is awakening more valued than illumination? well bright illumination follows deep awakening ... that's all Well that is the esoteric use of logic and reason, but esoterics is not all of sufism. There is the mystical union, and there is healing, and more, in each of these things logic and reason play a part, but in each case it is not a question of choice whether logic and reason are useful but a question of when are they useful. - -A ------------------------------ From: "Steve Phillips" Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:47:51 +0000 Subject: Re: logic and reason Ryan wrote: > A question has recently plagued me and I was wondering > wheather you > folks could help me out. Only In the past couple years have I been > into religion, however, I have always been interested in science. > Can logic and reason, powerful tools in science, be just as > useful > in discovering divine truths? Or is intuition and experience more > valued in religion? > Hello Ryan. It occurs to me that intuition is extremely important in science. All new advances require some type of leap outside of conventional thinking and belief. One story that stands out is the discovery of the carbon ring after a revelation in a dream (snake eating its tail) but plenty of other should also come to mind. I would contend that the mind, when struggling for a long time over a difficult problem usually works in the following way. Wrong ideas that fit the conventional wisdom are tried and tried unsuccessfully to fit the facts. This is the work of reason. Then eventually, in sheer weariness, the mind begins to wander into strange new territories, kind of like daydreaming about the problem (this is intuition). Here, in the territory of daydreams, an idea that contains a germ of an answer is planted in the mind. This seed, nourished by the waters of reason, then brings forth a new hypothesis, a new theory, or a new truth. I don't believe that the discovery of relativity is fully the work of reason, it has the beauty and elegance of creation. Archimede's discoveries are similar, there is more going on than simple reason, so also with Euclid, Newton, Babbage, the list goes on and on. It might be just as interesting to consider the role of reason in art and religion. peace, steve ------------------------------ From: pathway@dnet.net (John Womack) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 14:05:37 -0500 Subject: Re: ignorant question... >Hello friends, :) > Recently there have been several questions asked here. >What confuses me is not that these questions are being asked <>, >but the 'tone' of the questions (and answers). It seems to me that the >questions are being asked as though there is always a 'right' and 'wrong' >answer to these questions, not simply an array of possible ways of seeing >a particular issue/question. Is this a Sufi perspective? > >If we want to assume that there is /an/ answer to these questions, do we >also assume that there are those here who are capable and/or authorized >to answer these questions conclusively? If so, would this be an >accepted 'Sufi' answer? Do we ask for credentials of those giving >'answers'? > >Again, i know my questions are extremely ignorant. I do not know what it >means to be Sufi... i would be grateful if someone could help me >understand. > >Please forgive me if my questions seem offensive. I wish no one offense! > I ask, because i am confused. I was thinking that Sufis believed that >one must find one's own 'answers'.... am i wrong? > >with love, >carol > Hello Carol: No question can seem offensive to one engaged in spiritual exploration; yet all questions can seem offensive to one engaged in religious legality. Whose answers do you seek? If you seek Jewish answers, ask a Jew; if you seek Muslim answers, ask a Muslim, etc. If you seek your own answer, ask yourself. The main question is who asks the question? The best answer to a good question, is a good question. Just as we are "wired" for sex, food, work, so also are we "wired" for the serious work of spiritual exploration. There truly are no "answers" for the real seeker, only growth; yet there are many obstacles to spiritual growth, and "answers" is one of the main obstacles. ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 12:25:23 +0100 Subject: Re: ignorant questions I may ask many questions and recieve diverse answers There are many opinions and multiple wisdoms There are solutions so simple and others confusing There are multiple paths, detours and highways My mind can be clear or muddled and mixed, And then I must wait and listen inside To the Meditator who is meditating To the Knower who knows and in peacefullness Speaks, not as the mind full of thinking Just moving in breaths through the heart and breast... And surrender it all, the striving and strife Just be like a child drinking in milk Clinging to the Ultimate Mother Who nourishes with pure spirit of truth The kind that takes away all fear and uncertainty Just being near her is all enough This to me is, is more than enough Safe in the embrace of my Creator...this is the best Then I know that all the knowledge and wisdom is a drop And Allah is the ocean of magificent Love Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:09:48 -0700 Subject: Re: logic and reason Asim Jalis wrote: > > > divine truths? Or is intuition and experience more valued in religion? > Logic can only disprove things, never prove them; > verify perhaps but not prove for ever. Newtonian physics is an example. > (See Popper for more details.) > > Asim Hello, I think that don't agree with this. The only function of logic is to show that the conclusion is ( or is not) correctly (according to the science of logic) drawn from the premesis. Can you prove that you disproved something? In the relm of logic, the guy with the biggest mental stick wins. My own opinion is that logic should only be applied to the mundane aspects of day to day living. If you accept that logic can be used in higher relms, then you are jumping into the ring where, right or wrong, the biggest stick wins. This is a relm where mental might makes right. In the hands of guide, logic will can be used to show us a map, but this guide will always be pointing out that the map is not the terrain. - -Michael- ------------------------------ From: malek@icanect.net (JAZ) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:45:42 -0400 Subject: Re: logic and reason Albert Einstein said: "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. it is the source of all art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead; his eyes are closed." - -- Internet Communications of America, Inc. ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:23:37 EDT Subject: wonderful answers to ignorant questions! :) Thank you all who answered my questions... i appreciate all your comments. (and all those yet to come! :) I guess we all ask what we need to ask... and we receive the 'answers', as we need them, as we open to them. I am always awed by that which goes on here... it's amazing! thank you all. may we all know peace, carol ------------------------------ From: Ellen L Price Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:33:58 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: Desire Ah, but if I could only find someone who wanted to marry me! On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, ohla0003 wrote: > > >What is the cure for sexual desire? > > > >Asim > > Marriage. > > > > > > ------------------------------ From: Ellen L Price Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:36:03 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Desire On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, Michael J. Moore wrote: > ohla0003 wrote: > > > > >What is the cure for sexual desire? > > > > > >Asim > > > > Marriage. > > The question is based on the false premise that > sexual desire is an ailment. It is like asking > "What is the cure for having a left hand?" > -- > Michael J. Moore > I like that analogy? Just because the desire is there does not mean that one has to take action. Ellen ------------------------------ From: Ellen L Price Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:37:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Desire On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, Asim Jalis wrote: > Michael J. Moore writes: > > ohla0003 wrote: > > > > > > >What is the cure for sexual desire? > > > > > > > >Asim > > > > > > Marriage. > > > > The question is based on the false premise that > > sexual desire is an ailment. It is like asking > > "What is the cure for having a left hand?" > > Okay. Perhaps that premise should be discussed. It is not > obvious to me that sexual desire is *not* an ailment. For > one thing it brings the "self" to the fore. In fact it > probably represents the animal "self" at the pinnacle of its > power and control over the mind. I was reading Rumi last > night and he said, "take this dog hunting and you will be > the quarry". If you look at newly married couples or people > who have just started a physical relationship, they are > highly self-absorbed. > > > Asim > Without some form of desire the world would not turn. It is desire that spurs us on towards our Beloved. Ellen ------------------------------ From: Ellen L Price Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:46:24 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Desire On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, Asim Jalis wrote: > Are there examples of sufis who remained celibate? > Rabia Ellen ------------------------------ From: Ellen L Price Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:48:37 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Time On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, Asim Jalis wrote: > Time is an example of something over which there are no > disagreements even though it exhibits some of the characteristics > of religious doctrine: (a) it is different in different parts of > the world and (b) it is perpetually in flux (in fact, by > definition). > > Yet "what is the time" is one of the few questions you can ask a > complete stranger anywhere in the world and expect a loving > response. So there is also a concept of people seeking teachers > and others responding to this need out of love. > > What would be nice would be a spiritual watch that could give you > the same kind of perfect knowledge. > > > Asim > THere is. Allah! But one has to be receptive. When one is receptive the time is right. Ellen ------------------------------ From: Ellen L Price Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:55:19 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Contradiction On Sat, 14 Sep 1996 i-k@dircon.co.uk wrote: > > > / | \ | || > Assalamu alaikum o_\__,_|_s o )/|_w_|| > ( : ( > Is it a contradiction to find a person to be quite self-centred and yet > very generous by nature? > > > In the One Light > > Ivan > i-k@dircon.co.uk > I think so. If a self-centered person is generous it is probably because he/she likes attracting attention to oneself, or expects a pay-back. Ellen ------------------------------ From: Imaan Shivani Joshi Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:16:19 +0800 (SST) Subject: Re: Desire > On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, Asim Jalis wrote: > > Okay. Perhaps that premise should be discussed. It is not > > obvious to me that sexual desire is *not* an ailment. For > > one thing it brings the "self" to the fore. In fact it > > probably represents the animal "self" at the pinnacle of its > > power and control over the mind. I was reading Rumi last > > night and he said, "take this dog hunting and you will be > > the quarry". If you look at newly married couples or people > > who have just started a physical relationship, they are > > highly self-absorbed. > > > > > > Asim > > > Without some form of desire the world would not turn. It is desire that > spurs us on towards our Beloved. > Ellen as salaamu 'alaikum Good point, Ellen:-) I agree with this; to me, desire outside of the lawful/fruitful limits is what is deleterious; many for this reason, perhaps consider masturbation to be equally harmful, because through it, one learns to place onself above the needs and concerns of others; I am not here to debate for or against this point however; what br Asim says, I think, is not really valid; in Islam, as with everything else, we are asked to stick to the middle course; at this point in my life, perhaps until recently, I could foresee that if I remained single for the rest of my life, it would *not* be a problem, sexually or otherwise; but the companionship, that is sometimes a thing that we need; man is by nature, in some ways, a social creature; perhaps for this reason we are asked not to separate ourselves from our brs and srs, the good pple, for long; there is always the danger that shaytan may lurk there; as for sexual desire and the such, there are many well known hadeeth which indicate that the prophet[saw] disliked celibacy and extremes of any form of 'ibada. To me, the clearest proof of the merits of marriage lie in the verses of Allah[swt]; that He has created for us mates with whom we may rest and find peace and tranquility. As with the excitement of any new thing, a certain degree of extremism is quite normal, although perhaps not condoned; but this eventually settles. And if we marry because we wish to protect ourselves from zina, or because we wish to follow the sunna of the pophet[saw], who has said that any who abandon this institution of marrige, is not of my followers, then certainly, we would be performing an act of worship even by marrying; because Insh'Allah, our niyat is right; I relate the story of a sister I know; she is greatly interested in tasawwuf, as is, I think her husband; she told me they met he proposed and they went home, prayed on it, and three days later, were married; she gave me an invaluable lesson on marriage; she told me " I do not look lightly at my husband nor do I take him for granted; to me, he is a trust from Allh[swt], and as such, I have to try my hardest to take good care of him for His sake; similarly, he sees me as a trust from Him. This baby that I carry [ she was pregnant then; they have a baby boy now, alHamdulillah.] is similarly a trust and it will be our responsibility as his parents that we bring him up right with the proper values. " masha'Allah, I have never heard this described as such, where each party does this for more than satisfying his own desires. And actions are judged based on intentions, are they not? wasalaam. ------------------------------ From: Asim Jalis Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 22:28:11 CDT Subject: RE: Desire Ellen L. Price writes: > On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, ohla0003 wrote: > > Asim Jalis wrote: > > > What is the cure for sexual desire? > > > > Marriage. > > Ah, but if I could only find someone who wanted to marry me! This is the problem with this solution (of "marriage"). As if this was like clipping your nails: something you could accomplish as soon as you desired it. Whereas it is obvious that marriage, like finding a shaykh, is something that happens only when God wills it. And so replacing the desire to have sex with the desire to marry doesn't really solve anything at all. It leads to the same obsession and the same inflation of the "self". If one is in a state of being single one has two options: either feel incomplete and frustrated by trying to change one's state (either through sex or marriage), or accept one's present state as the will of God and surrendering oneself to it. Celibacy or chaste-ness is more a liberation from sex than the absence of sex. Those are my thoughts anyway. Based on my own particular brand of ignorance and prejudice. Asim ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #142 *****************************