From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Sun Jul 7 07:25:05 1996 Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 22:02:18 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #37 tariqas-digest Saturday, 29 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 037 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 13:50:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dancing of the Companions State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 29-Jun-1996 01:50pm EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: Dancing of the Companions G. Fouad Haddad 29-Jun-1996 01:01pm EDT TO: Remote Addressee ( _msa-ec@world.std.com ) Subject: Dancing of the Companions DANCING OF THE COMPANIONS - ------------------------- `Abd Allah ibn Ahmad narrates from his father: `Ali said: I visited the Prophet with Ja`far (ibn Abi Talib and Zayd (ibn Haritha). The Prophet said to Zayd: "You are my freedman" (anta mawlay), whereupon Zayd began to hop on one leg around the prophet (fa hajala). The Prophet then said to Ja`far: "You resemble me in my creation and my manners" (anta ashbahta khalqi wa khuluqi), whereupon Ja`far began to hop behind Zayd. The Prophet then said to me: "You pertain to me and I pertain to you," whereupon I began to hop behind Ja`far. Imam Ahmad related it in his "Musnad" 1:108 (#860). Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami said in his "Fatawa hadithiyya" (p. 212) and al-Yafi`i concurred with him in "Mir'at al-jinan" (4:154) that some scholars have seen in this evidence for the permissibility of "dancing" (al-raqs) upon hearing a recital (sama`) that lifts the spirit. Among them is Shaykh al-Islam al-`Izz ibn `Abd al-Salam, concerning whom it is authentically reported that he himself "attended the sama` and danced in states of ecstasy" (kana yahduru al-sama` wa yarqusu wa yatawajadu," as stated by Ibn al-`Imad in his "Shadharat al-dhahab" (5:302) on the authority of al-Dhahabi; Ibn Shakir al-Kutabi in "Fawat al-wafayat (1:595), al-Yafi`i in "Mir'at al-jinan" (4:154); al-Nabahanai in "Jami` karamat al-awliya'" (2:71); and Abu al-Sa`adat in "Taj al-ma`arif" p. 250. This permissibility of a type of dancing on the part of the Imams and hadith masters makes it impermissible to declare as forbidden, on a general basis, participation in "sama`" and the dancing that accompanies "sama`." As for particular cases where the dancing may be prohibited, it regards the worldly kind of effeminate dancing which has nothing to do with the ecstasy of of sama` and dhikr. al-`Izz ibn `Abd al-Salam differentiated the two in his Fatwas: "Dancing is a bid`a (innovation) which is not countenanced except by one deficient in his mind. It is unfitting for other than women. As for the audition of poetry (sama`) which stirs one towards states of purity (ahwal saniyya) which remind one of the hereafter: there is nothing wrong with it, nay, it is recommended (bal yundab ilayh) for lukewarm and dry hearts. However, the one who harbors wrong desires in his heart is not allowed to attend the sama`, for the sama` stirs up whatever desire is already in the heart, both the detestable and the desirable." "Fatawa misriyya" (p. 158). He also said in his "Qawa`id al-ahkam" (2:220-221): "Dancing and clapping are a bad display resembling the display of women, which no one indulges except frivolous men or affected liars... whoever apprehends the greatness of Allah, it cannot be imagined that he will start dancing and clapping as these are not performed except by the crassly ignorant, not those who have merit and intelligence, and the proof of their ignorance is that the Shari`a has not cited any evidence for their action in the Qur'an and the Sunna, and none of the Prophets or their notable followers ever did it." Blessings and Peace on the Prophet, his Family, and his Companions Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation of Ahl al-Sunna wal-Jama`a URL: http://www.best.com/~informe/mateen/haqqani.html [in 9 languages] Europe Mirror URL:http://www.ummah.org.uk/haqqani/ email: mateens@sybase.com, ghaddad@ccmail.sunysb.edu ------------------------------ From: JHulvey@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 14:04:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Recent jabs, corrections In a message dated 96-06-29 00:01:59 EDT, you write: >Well actually I hate being called a sweetie. To me, sweetness doesn't have to be sugary - it can have depth and substance. But I'm sorry I called you what you don't want to be called! As for coffee: Is this correct, that in Arabic, it is the same word for both "coffee" and "wine"? Jules (the caffiend) ------------------------------ From: CWoodsong@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 14:22:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Sufi chist? g'day, dear Hamza! >But since the question was asked, and there has been so much poetry posted >here, I thought I would add an idea about what sufis and sufism are/is, by >way of a song from Shaykh Peter Murphy. It's a look at the more painful >aspects of the path, contrasted to the dancing and the light. Could you please tell me about this Shayke Peter Murphy and his music? thanks for posting that song, btw. :) peace & love, woodsong ------------------------------ From: Frank Gaude Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:40:11 -0700 Subject: Re: relationships AMBER K WILLIAMS wrote: > > Thank you Bob, > > I also agree and think the staying with the problem helped to solve it > somewhat. Somewhat? [...] > Expressing ourselves with unkind words just > seems to lead to more unkind words. [...] Gosh, Iram, the words of your sentence seem to be arranged in a very tolerant, wise manner. You know such could be applied to fixed, inflexible belief systems that roam the land. Intolerance leads to intolerance, like begets like! Do we believe such? Wonder is the beauty of the land. The Kahuna (Keeper of The Secret) has one slogan, only one: "No hurt, no sin!" If you hurt nothing you are without sin. Now this is plain talk. We all could learn much from this simple practice: those who think they know THE PATH, and those who think they don't, all. God, You are Beautiful! Alhamdu'lillah! Love, Harmony, and Beauty, coming in the reverse order, tanzen ------------------------------ From: jabriel@peoples.net (Jabreil Hanafi) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 14:09:48 -0500 Subject: One and One and Co=option I hope I get this story right! Shayke Ahmed Muhhaiaddeen was with Shayke Bawa Muhaiddeen in Sri Lanka on something like a retreat. After several days of dhikr Shayke Muhaideen was very high for him there was only the dancing of the molecule. His Holiness Shayke Bawa requested of one of his mureeds to bring a hot coal from a fire in a coconut shell. He requested with the love everyone came to know of him that Shayke Ahmed pick up the coal in his hand. Brought a little to humility Shayke Ahmed's mind activated and with everyone around he "thought well there out to have some fun with this American"! But because of his love, his vow and his demand for fidelity he was obediant and picked up the hot coal feeling and smelling the burining flesh of his now buring hand. His eyes were closed and tears were rolling. Shayke Bawa had now pealed a ripe mango and said open your mouth Ahmed and stuffed the mango cool and sweet in. And then said My love it is not all one, not all one. The ability to discriminate without the mechanical mind's nattering is a requirement. And this is a trap I have in the past found myself snared by. The spiritual supermarket would take you away from your Beloved and call you God, it would say it was all god in a scheme of co-opting everything so that that which was sacred would have about asa much savor as a McDonald Hamburger, and about as much arrogance as the field that was stolen to raise the poor cow which was born to be murdered. Sometimes the markets has its groupies, and followers and even mureeds be a little like those cows chanting and singing of love and it all being one with no attention to the mystery in silence. Think of the racket heard in the jungles in Sri Lanaka by parrots. Our hearts need to conquer our minds and our minds need to be cultivated so as to be worth conquering. Love Jabriel - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ From: Bob King Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 16:37:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: relationships On 29 Jun 1996, AMBER K WILLIAMS wrote: > Expressing ourselves with unkind words just > seems to lead to more unkind words. > Name-callings and chararter devaluing doesn't help-as we have seen > in this fine example. Iram, I think it's possible to regard a "flame" as a call to meditate on the "something more" going on. I think you're right -- sometimes the "something more" is a personal thing or a gender thing -- but I also think it can serve as an opportunity to transform one emotion (anger) into another (admission of pain/hurt) into another (admission of caring), which can be a doorway to hightening/deepening (AKA spiritual learning). What do you think? This is not a defense of flaming, but rather a question concering how to interpret flaming. . . Bob ------------------------------ From: Frank Gaude Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 13:47:18 -0700 Subject: Re: One and One and Co=option Jabreil Hanafi wrote: > > I hope I get this story right! Shayke Ahmed Muhhaiaddeen was with Shayke > Bawa Muhaiddeen in Sri Lanka on something like a retreat. After several [...] > the burining flesh of his now buring hand. His eyes were closed and tears > were rolling. Shayke Bawa had now pealed a ripe mango and said open your > mouth Ahmed and stuffed the mango cool and sweet in. This story, if I understand it in the way intended, is similar to "A Story of Moses", by Ilahi-Nama, posted this morning. Faith, duty, commitment, responsibilty, compassion... > And then said My love it is not all one, not all one. Such a statement has many meanings... an infinite number of meanings. > The ability to discriminate without the mechanical mind's nattering is a > requirement. A requirement? How do you know? > And this is a trap I have in the past found myself snared by. Which self is doing the talking, there and here? How many selves are there? > The spiritual supermarket would take you away from your Beloved and call you > God, How do you know this, Jabreil? > it would say it was all god in a scheme of co-opting everything so that > that which was sacred would have about as a much savor as a McDonald > Hamburger, and about as much arrogance as the field that was stolen to raise > the poor cow which was born to be murdered. Jabreil, you in a judgemental mood today, or something? > Sometimes the markets has its > groupies, and followers and even mureeds be a little like those cows > chanting and singing of love and it all being one with no attention to the > mystery in silence. What is being said here? Speak plainly, O ye of poetry! > Think of the racket heard in the jungles in Sri Lanaka > by parrots. One person's "racket" is another's music, this from observations. > Our hearts need to conquer our minds and our minds need to be > cultivated so as to be worth conquering. Again, Jabreil, just how do you know this? Regards, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 14:40:42 +0100 Subject: Re: Recent jabs, corrections >In a message dated 96-06-29 00:01:59 EDT, you write: > >>Well actually I hate being called a sweetie. > >To me, sweetness doesn't have to be sugary - it can have depth and substance. > >But I'm sorry I called you what you don't want to be called! > >As for coffee: Is this correct, that in Arabic, it is the same word for both >"coffee" and "wine"? > >Jules (the caffiend) > >------ zyou can call me that, I should have when I said that. coffee is a nickname, Kaffea lalla is my sufi name, Jacquie is my birth name. Alot of people have called me sweet, and what they mean is different than my impression. I have always admired people different than me, and so it's ok. It was a complement actually. Love me. ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Spirituality and Significant Others Assalamu alaikum. On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Lilyan Kay wrote: > Interestingly, it is assumed to be only men who feel trapped. Is it a > matter of biology as destiny and the woman's role in childbearing, and/or > are these tendencies reflections of our deeper natures as men and women? > Or is this even really the case or do men just tend to express it in these > ways (remember the Bell Jar)? The assumption that "all" men are this way and that "all" women are that way is simply not true. I know at least one woman who is by nature extremely polygamous, and unable to commit to any one man. While it seems possible that men and women may have different innate tendencies, statistically, in any individual case there are many factors involved. It's like saying "men are stronger than women" or "men are taller than women." While those statements are statistically correct in general, in any specific instance, a woman may be stronger or taller than a man. My question is whether it is useful to try to understand "why men are this way" (thereby making an assumption that at best is a matter of probability) -- or more useful to try to understand for each individual (particularly ourselves), "why is this person this way"? I'm not familiar with the Bell Jar. What about the Bell Curve? Yours, Habib ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:48:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Spirituality and vehicles (was: Re: sufi!) On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Craig Johannsen wrote: > Perhaps sufism is a vehicle, like a car. > You get in it and it can transport you over vast distances. > It's an odd kind of car though, because you're supposed > to let Someone else drive it while you do the pedalling! > And you should take it where others need it to go, not > where you merely fancy to travel. > > Initiation, then, is just the driving lessons. > > There are other possible vehicles and the driving lessons > are different for those vehicles. Assalamu alaikum. I kindof like the analogy of sufism with vehicles. Actually, to my understanding, the term "vehicle" is specifically used in Buddhism to refer to different approaches within Buddhism -- Therevada vs. Mahayana. Perhaps someone with more experience with Buddhism can "enlighten" us ;-) Yours, Habib ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:05:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: N@deem News Service (fwd) Assalamu alaikum, In case any members of tariqas are interested... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 00:22:54 -0400 From: nadeem@MEM.po.com To: habib@world.std.com Subject: N@deem News Service In the of Allah, the Compassinate, the Merciful Dear Brother: Aslaamailikum. I would like to anounounce the avialabilty of N@deem News Service. NNS is a newly launched news service for the Pakistanis livinig in the United States and Europe. We send our news bulletin directly to the subscribers' e mail boxes. This service is absoutely free of charge , If you would like to have the news bulletin directly sent to your e mail box, please send your e mail address to: Nadeem@mem.po.com Waslaam. Editor. NNS USA. ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Personal and public discussions Assalamu alaikum. We have recently had several exchanges in tariqas which appeared -- to me - -- personal in nature. I'm not sure what to say about this. If people want to share these sorts of exchanges with tariqas, they are welcome to do so. I guess I would just like to encourage people to think about whether they do in fact want to share these exchanges with the whole group, or through one-to-one email. What we have formed here in tariqas is something of a community, with people who have at least a bit of familiarity with each other (or at least each other's words -- which may or may not be the same thing). Perhaps we should use the same consideration in sharing things in tariqas that we might have in sharing in public -- let's say in a dining room -- in our community (of friends, Insh'Allah). Some things are better shared in open, while some things might be better dealt with by holding the discussions privately. God knows best. Yours, Habib ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Threshold Society URL (was: Re: Melevi) Assalamu alaikum. I believe the address is: http://www.webcom.com/threshld/ Yours, Habib Rose On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, arsalaan fay wrote: > Friend > > Do you mean Mevlevi? if so > PLease see http://webcom.com/threshl > > This the Threshold Society in Vermont U.S. They are Mevlevi > > > On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Jacquie Weller wrote: > > > Could someone tell a little about the Melevi Order. Interested > > kaffea lalla. > > > > ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 20:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: digest option Asalaam alaikum. On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Anthony Teelucksingh wrote: > Asalaam Alaikum, > > Sorry to bother the list with a housekeeping matter (my own, that > is), but I've deleted the recent email about the digest option > now available for this list. Could brother Rose or someone else > post it again? Thank you. Great opportunity to remind others in the list about this option. Thanks! To subscribe to the digest, send email to majordomo@world.std.com with the following text: subscribe tariqas-digest You may then wish to unsubscribe from tariqas itself by sending email (also to majordomo@world.std.com) with the following text: unsubscribe tariqas Note: you can combine both in one message: subscribe tariqas-digest unsubscribe tariqas Please let me know by direct email if you need any assistance. Yours, Habib Rose host of tariqas habib@world.std.com ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 17:24:04 -0700 Subject: RE: Personal and public discussions - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB65DF.CBBE9D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Habib for posting the statement re. private and public = discussions.... you beat me to it. I also feel that some of these = conversations may be moved into the private sphere. It has reached a = point where, with the number of messages received, I simply delete some = posts without reading them. There are undoubtedly many lurkers in this = forum, and I feel it is important that the forum discussions not = alienate anyone nor tend towards exclusivity via excessive personal = chat. 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Habib said on Saturday We have recently had several exchanges in tariqas which appeared -- to me - -- personal in nature. I'm not sure what to say about this. If people want to share these sorts of exchanges with tariqas, they are welcome to do so. I guess I would just like to encourage people to think about whether they do in fact want to share these exchanges with the whole group, or through one-to-one email. >>I have been very personal about a lot of things in my poetry, about recent >>events, tried to tell a story of faith, death, reasurrection, and the response >>has been welcome to me. I am sorry if my being personal is too much for some >>but I had wanted to share myself, what I have discovered, and to look forward >>to knowing you. snip; Perhaps we should use the same consideration in sharing things in tariqas that we might have in sharing in public -- let's say in a dining room -- in our community (of friends, Insh'Allah). Some things are better shared in open, while some things might be better dealt with by holding the discussions privately. >>This statement makes me feel like a child being scolded for being >>inappropriate, not having good manners, or something like that. I also >>guilty for being so personal. Love Kaffea Lalla. ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:50:09 +0800 Subject: Re: Personal and public discussions On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Steve H Rose wrote: [...] >What we have formed here in tariqas is something of a community, with >people who have at least a bit of familiarity with each other (or at least >each other's words -- which may or may not be the same thing). Perhaps we >should use the same consideration in sharing things in tariqas that we >might have in sharing in public -- let's say in a dining room -- in our >community (of friends, Insh'Allah). Some things are better shared in >open, while some things might be better dealt with by holding the >discussions privately. Salam to Habib I read your words and I find it against the spirit of the guideline for tariqas-list i.e mainly sharing from the experience of the hearts. I agree, that there's a difference between personal chats and group chats, but ... some of them i find really come from the heart. So, in light of being said here... I don't know whether this is a pesonal chat or suitbale for the list. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:01:42 +0800 Subject: Re: One and One and Co=option On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Frank Gaude wrote: >Jabreil Hanafi wrote: >> >> I hope I get this story right! Shayke Ahmed Muhhaiaddeen was with Shayke >> Bawa Muhaiddeen in Sri Lanka on something like a retreat. After several > >[...] > >> the burining flesh of his now buring hand. His eyes were closed and tears >> were rolling. Shayke Bawa had now pealed a ripe mango and said open your >> mouth Ahmed and stuffed the mango cool and sweet in. > >This story, if I understand it in the way intended, is similar to "A Story of >Moses", by Ilahi-Nama, posted this morning. Faith, duty, commitment, responsibilty, >compassion... > Salam to Jabreil, Tanzen and all the silent ones in the list To Tanzen: Jabreil's story reminded me of the war in Ramayana epic, where the the warring ones battle by shooting arrows, and their arrows fought. Sometimes, this is a way i fought by shooting arrows into the battleground of tariqas-list. Ta Jabreil: Tanzen's poem on the tale of Moses and an abdal. What is an abdal? That is the guy Moses met. He evaporates when he asked Moses for a cup of water. He reminded me of Bawa, who was reported "missing" after he went to America. To the silent ones in the list: Anybody knows or heard the latest on Bawa Muhaiyadeen lately? salam to all maarof ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #37 ****************************