From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Tue Jul 9 16:29:13 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:49:14 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #52 tariqas-digest Tuesday, 9 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 052 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Rice Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:14:49 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: More Questions Dear Kaffea Lalla, Assalamu alaikum (Peace be with you), On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Jacquie Weller wrote: > >From my background in reading the King James Bible, and the Quaran a little, > I am left with many doubts. Parts speak right to my heart and I can say AH yes, > other parts, I do not understand. > > I don't understand a woman or a man being buried knee deep and stoned to death, > for commiting adultery. Adultery requires 4 *eye-witnesses* of the sexual act -- an impossible condition to fulfill in practice, unless adultery is performed in the middle of a supermarket or something like that. So, adultery is almost impossible to bring to court. Such a punishment is more instead symbolic of its seriousness. Hopefully, when tempted to commit adultery, people will think of just *how serious* it is. Adultery destroys families and thus the lives of innocent children. One thing to remember when looking at Islamic Law is that the punishments are _preventative_, not punitive. That is why you have a very harsh punishment, but coupled with it very, very hard conditions to fulfill for it to be brought to court. It is designed to prevent the act occurring in the first place, rather than to punish the act after it has already occurred. > I don't understand an Angel keeping track of all the "sins" I do, or > judgement day, or going to hell because I don't know the "true", name of God. Islam (and the Qur'an) has many levels of understanding. That is one level, but you will find higher levels in the writings of the great Sufis. In Christianity, one thing I've noticed many Christians like to emphasize is you cannot go to heaven on works alone. This is also true in Islam, however both works and faith are important. Good works are the outer manifestation of inner faith -- they cannot be separated. > To me living apart from the Beloved in the now is a type of agony, but in this > relationship, Heaven on earth. Yes, heaven and hell can both be on this earth, right now. At this very moment, some people are living in inner paradise, others are living in an inner hell, the rest are somewhere between the two. > I don't understand a war between evil and good? I understand the pain that > results through not following the way of love, forgiveness, peace, kindness. > I understand the results of not surrendering and giving up the false when > one becomes awakened to that. I understand that only the Beloved satisfies > the inner soul and nothing else...drugs, alcohol, material things, > entertainment, these things leave one empty and unfullfilled, dead in the > long run. Again, there are different levels of understanding. If you quoted specific verses maybe we could help more? > I don't understand people who think that there is only one religion, whereby > people are saved. I say there is One God and each person gets back to that > source eventually. The other morning right between sleep and waking up, a > sentence spoke to me, "Each person gets to God in their own way". The Qur'an itself says, in translation: ...those who believe (in Islam), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does right -- surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (Qur'an 2:62, see also 5:72) Thus, not only those who use the label "Muslim" will be "saved," also true Christians, Jews, "Sabians", in fact any who 1. believes in God, 2. the "Last Day," and 3. does good things. The "Last Day" I tend to understand as meaning a person who believes that their bad deeds will have consequences, as will their good deeds. For example, I think Buddhists fulfill these 3 criteria. Although they don't talk about "God," it is essentially the same as the Buddhists' talk of "Buddha-nature," for example. Regarding consequences for good or bad deeds, this is the Law of Karma. And as for doing good, this is clearly encouraged in Buddhism, such as the intention of many Buddhists to save all creatures through their spiritual practice. The Qur'an has a very inclusive teaching. Unfortunately, many Muslims cannot see it, and are so caught up with clinging to their labels, when God sees the essence and reality, not the label. > I do not wish to offend anyone about all this, but these questions are sincere, > not intended to cause harm. Love Kaffea Lalla. If we never asked, we would never learn. :) Peace, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:18:02 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: More Questions Dear Michael, Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah, On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Michael J. Moore wrote: > The Quaran says, kill the kafir (un-believer) that is nearest to you. > Some have taken this to mean that you may kill non-muslims. > A good shaykh will tell you that it refers to your nafs,- you > must kill your nafs. The Qur'an has many levels, and the Shaykh told you of a higher level. However, as for the "face meaning" of the verse (I'm not sure which one you are talking about, by the way), you have to consider also the context of the verse, and the context of the rest of the Qur'an. Peace, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:18:33 +0100 Subject: Hudud >Jacquie said: >>-----I have heard from my muslim friend from pakistan, that this is still >done today. The burying people knee deep and stoning them for adultery. He >said it is the law there, is that true, or did I misunderstand my friend. >Kaffea Lalla > Maarof replied: Yes, this practice is still done in some parts of the Muslim world. In Malaysia, the sentence is usually a fine depending on some states. Some states imposed a jail sentence (the most recent case was 2 couples jailed for 30 days). But the law is not equally applied, because the non-Muslim partner was not charged under the Syariah court. Sometimes, I think the Law is never equally applied because usually those caught are ordinary people and not the rich and the powerful. This issue is a hot topic in Muslim world, it will be very interesting to discuss it. Even in the Muslim world, there are different of opinions regarding punishments on criminal law. So it varies between one country to another. My opinion on this matter is I look at the intention in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet in applying those punishment, but in these times of decline in Muslim world, there is a greater need of tarbiyah (educating) the people to understand and reach for the Islamic ideal, rather than enforcing punishments, which potray Islam as a harsh religion, which it is not. Jacquie Replies: Yes education sounds good. The old testament is harsh also, and was changed by the new covenant by Jesus. He did not advocate stoning. He said to the crowd that wanted to stone the woman adulteress, "he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Therefore everyone left, because no one is spotless. He also wrote something in the sand that I often wondered about, and it is a mystery. Isn't that just like God. Some things are so clear and others a mystery. love Kaffea lalla. ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:33:08 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: More Questions Assalamu alaikum, On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Jacquie Weller wrote: > -----I have heard from my muslim friend from pakistan, that this is still > done today. The burying people knee deep and stoning them for adultery. He > said it is the law there, is that true, or did I misunderstand my friend. > Kaffea Lalla Stoning as a punishment is never mentioned in the Qur'an. More on that at the end. Unfortunately, sometimes Islamic Law is abused by those who seek to twist it for their own gain, by applying part of Islamic Law, and ignoring another part which is important. An example of this are those who apply the punishment for adultery, but do not apply the requirement of *four eyewitnesses* to the sexual act which are required for the case even to go to court. The requirement of four witnesses is stated in Qur'an 4:15. If someone accuses someone publicly of adultery, and doesn't bring four witnesses, they themselves should be punished according to Qur'an 24:4. I don't know the details, but I wouldn't be surprised if in some places (like perhaps Pakistan) these parts of the law are in practice ignored. If so, then it is not Islamic Law they are following, but their own twisted invention. By the way, the Qur'an nowhere mentions stoning for adultery. It is mentioned in hadith. The majority Muslim viewpoint accepts it, however there is a minority view which says that there is no stoning for adultery, but rather the punishment mentioned in 24:2 (lashes). Stoning as a punishment is never mentioned in the Qur'an at all, except when previous disbelievers tried to stone the Prophets. Kaffea Lalla, you must have read or heard about stoning from some other source, because it is never mentioned as a punishment at all in the Qur'an, that I have been able to find. Peace, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:35:41 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Questions On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Jacquie Weller wrote: > Why did I ask all those questions > As if thinking this and that so matters > What is this blood of Great Compassion > Giving life, Killing none, > Turning me inside out > So what I thought no longer is > I know this kiss > Will heal forever. > Kaffea Lalla It is easy to become "too attached" to Law. I spent many years "too attached" to it, because I knew nothing else, which is why I have some knowledge of these things. The essence is in the Spirit, without this, Law is nothing (though not useless). Peace, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:38:17 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: More Questions Assalamu alaikum, On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Jacquie Weller wrote: > >From my background in reading the King James Bible, and the Quaran a little, > I am left with many doubts. Parts speak right to my heart and I can say AH yes, > other parts, I do not understand. > > I don't understand a woman or a man being buried knee deep and stoned to death, > for commiting adultery. Dear Kaffea Lalla, As I stated before, you cannot find this anywhere in the Qur'an.... you are probably reading some extra material, which may or may not be good or not. Not everything written is accurate. Peace, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:03:27 +0100 Subject: Stoning and re:questions To clarify, I did not read anything in the Quaran about stoning. I was told by my muslim friend about the stoning done today, the one from Pakistan. And that this was the law there. He comes from Karachi. The old testament of King James Bible mentions stoning for various offenses. Jesus changed that by the things he said and he said the law is fulfilled by two commandments, Love thy neighbor as yourself, And love God with all your heart, mind and soul. By loving like this otherwise the ten commandments will be fulfilled also. For instance if you Love your neighbor, you won't steal. (Thou shall not steal) and so forth. ------------------------------ From: Lilyan Kay Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Stoning and re:questions asalaam-u-aleikum I have read several newspaper accounts of incidents in Pakistan and Bangladesh that are even worse than this - when a woman is raped, she is assumed an adulteress and stoned, while the rapist goes free because there were not 4 witnesses to the rape. I don't know if these are accurate stories, but it wouldn't surprise me. All sorts of obscenities are committed in the name of religion, that are antithetical to the word of Allah (swt). It does not follow that one should therefore reject Allah's word. On the contrary, better to learn it very well as Faridudien has, in order to avoid fuzzy thinking and prevent its misuse. The fact remains that unfortunately there are people who do not live by the Golden Rule, and Allah swt in his mercy has provided protection from their actions through the shari'a. Would you really want to live somewhere where there were no legal consequences to any action? Lily On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Jacquie Weller wrote: > To clarify, I did not read anything in the Quaran about stoning. I was told > by my muslim friend about the stoning done today, the one from Pakistan. And > that this was the law there. He comes from Karachi. > > The old testament of King James Bible mentions stoning for various offenses. > Jesus changed that by the things he said and he said the law is fulfilled by > two commandments, Love thy neighbor as yourself, And love God with all your > heart, mind and soul. By loving like this otherwise the ten commandments > will be fulfilled also. For instance if you Love your neighbor, you won't > steal. (Thou shall not steal) and so forth. > > ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:52:00 +0100 Subject: Re: Stoning and re:questions Dear lily, in response to your question would I want to live anywhere where there was no legal actions, (for ex. crimes), no. I am not questioning the authenticity of the Quaran, or the Bible, exactly. When there is something I do not understand I asked wiser people than me to explain it as I have done here. I have had lots of teachings about the King James Bible from all different Christian religions; and still parts don't always set well, but on the whole it is good, in my estimation. I have had no instructions about the Quaran, so realize it is not an easy book for me to figure out. If my original writing on this had been not snipped so often, you could recognize more of what I've been trying to say. Please don't think I'm criticising the Beautiful Muslim people and their not only beautifully written Quaran which I wish I when spoken in Arabic, is so melodious and lovely sounding. I only know some Dhikrs in Arabic, but when my friend reads in Arabic it is so soothing and even when I don't know the meaning it is a spiritual experience just to hear the sounds. But when I have questions, it does not mean that there are really answers, but I hope for clarifying if this is possible. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:21:09 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Stoning and re:questions Dear Lily, Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah, On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Lilyan Kay wrote: > I have read several newspaper accounts of incidents in Pakistan and > Bangladesh that are even worse than this - when a woman is raped, she is > assumed an adulteress and stoned, while the rapist goes free because there > were not 4 witnesses to the rape. I don't know if these are accurate > stories, but it wouldn't surprise me. Actually, I have read a hadith which says that the eyewitness of the victim may be enough to convict someone of rape.... I've quoted the hadith which suggests this below (at the end). Sorry to go into these details, everyone, but this is reality. Unfortunately, not everyone in the world is nice, and there must be some justice and rules.... > All sorts of obscenities are committed in the name of religion, that are > antithetical to the word of Allah (swt). It does not follow that one > should therefore reject Allah's word. On the contrary, better to learn it > very well as Faridudien has, in order to avoid fuzzy thinking and prevent > its misuse. > > The fact remains that unfortunately there are people who do not live by > the Golden Rule, and Allah swt in his mercy has provided protection from > their actions through the shari'a. Would you really want to live > somewhere where there were no legal consequences to any action? Here is the hadith I have read regarding rape... I am not an Islamic scholar, but it is the only thing I have found (though I am limited since I do not read Arabic, so I must rely on translations): - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is reported by Wa'il ibn Hujr that a woman went out in the time of the Prophet to go to prayer, and a man who met her attacked her and got his desire of her. She shouted and he went off, and when a company of the Muhajirun [Muslims who had moved from Mecca to Madinah] came by, she said: "That man did such-and-such to me." They seized him and brought him to Allah's Messenger, who said to the woman, "Go away, for Allah has forgiven you," but of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said, "Stone him to death." [Narrated by Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud]. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- [I quote this hadith from the book "Role of Muslim Women in Society" by Afzalur Rahman (Seerah Foundation, London, 1986), p. 353.] So, according to this hadith, it appears that it may be so that a man could be punished for rape on the sole witness of the victim. The victim is not herself punished!! As I stated before, stoning is mentioned in hadith, but it is not mentioned anywhere as a punishment in the Qur'an. As a result, some people have differing opinions on how to take these things. It seems to me completely ludicrous to apply the ruling for adultery in the case of rape, since they are two different things. In adultery, there is mutual consent, in rape, there is no consent. To punish the victim of rape (as might sometimes happen in Pakistan -- I have heard the same thing Lily has, but I have no first-hand knowledge) is a complete travesty of justice, and is the result of either extremely shallow thinking or a hatred of women by those who put such a rule into practice. It seems to completely contradict the hadith I have quoted above. By the way, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are not the only Muslim countries, as some people seem to like to believe. Muslims span the globe from Bosnia to Central Africa to Indonesia to China to Chechnya. Most Muslims are not "Fundamentalists" and extremists in the sense the media often portrays! These extremists are usually also completely opposed to Sufism, which they consider to be "bid'ah," or unlawful innovation. As a result, for example, Tasawwuf (Sufism) I have heard is completely banned in Saudi Arabia. These extremists ignore that the great Islamic scholars of history have supported Tasawwuf as the highest spiritual pathway in islam. Wassalam, Fariduddien Rice ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:36:23 +0800 Subject: Writings in the sand On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) wrote: > >Yes education sounds good. The old testament is harsh also, and was changed >by the new covenant by Jesus. He did not advocate stoning. He said to the >crowd that wanted to stone the woman adulteress, "he who is without sin, >cast the first stone". Therefore everyone left, because no one is spotless. >He also wrote something in the sand that I often wondered about, and it is a >mystery. Isn't that just like God. Some things are so clear and others a >mystery. love Kaffea lalla. Thanks Lalla, I read somewhere: "On Resurection day all the Prophets will be called with their followers. Then they will be called: O followers of Moses. O followers of Jesus. O followers of Muhammad. The lovers of God will not be called, as they will be addressed thus: O friends of God, come to Me. Then their hearts will be filled with joy. Love is a mystery and joy. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:53:06 +0100 Subject: Sufi and Muslim So what I gather is a Sufi Muslim is different, somewhat, from the fundamentalist, and this varies/... Also in christian churches there are people who interpret everything literally, and others symbolically, and more liberally, and there are wide ranges in between. I find this true also when people interpret my poetry. It is amazing the different things they see in there, that I do not see. Well I hope you will let me off the hook pretty soon, because I feel like the lone ranger out here . Love Kaffea Lalla. ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:24:24 +0800 Subject: Press reports on Muslim counties On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Lilyan Kay wrote: > >asalaam-u-aleikum > >I have read several newspaper accounts of incidents in Pakistan and >Bangladesh that are even worse than this - when a woman is raped, she is >assumed an adulteress and stoned, while the rapist goes free because there >were not 4 witnesses to the rape. I don't know if these are accurate >stories, but it wouldn't surprise me. > >All sorts of obscenities are committed in the name of religion, that are >antithetical to the word of Allah (swt). It does not follow that one >should therefore reject Allah's word. On the contrary, better to learn it >very well as Faridudien has, in order to avoid fuzzy thinking and prevent >its misuse. > >The fact remains that unfortunately there are people who do not live by >the Golden Rule, and Allah swt in his mercy has provided protection from >their actions through the shari'a. Would you really want to live >somewhere where there were no legal consequences to any action? > >Lily Dear Lily, I won't believe 100 percent all the reports from the wire agencies. Usually such reports originated from local newspaper reports, and then rewritten to suit the taste of American reading public (in the case of AP, UPI) and British and the rest of English speaking world (in case of Reuters). There might be truth in the stories you read, but I think we must also remember that a few paragraphed story cetainly does not do justice to legal cases, which sometimes took months to end. There's also the appeal court to consider even in Shariah system. I don't think the legal system in Pakistan and Bangladesh is that bad. However, it might happened in isolated place, on remote place, but highlighted in local press, but the international version in your newspaper, gives the impression such case is rampant in those countries. God knows best. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:44:05 +0800 Subject: Shariah court maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Lilyan Kay wrote: >> >>asalaam-u-aleikum >> >>I have read several newspaper accounts of incidents in Pakistan and >>Bangladesh that are even worse than this - when a woman is raped, she is >>assumed an adulteress and stoned, while the rapist goes free because there >>were not 4 witnesses to the rape. I don't know if these are accurate >>stories, but it wouldn't surprise me. >> >>Lily > >Dear Lily, > >I won't believe 100 percent all the reports from the wire agencies. Usually >such reports originated from local newspaper reports, and then rewritten to >suit the taste of American reading public (in the case of AP, UPI) and >British and the rest of English speaking world (in case of Reuters). > >There might be truth in the stories you read, but I think we must also >remember that a few paragraphed story cetainly does not do justice to legal >cases, which sometimes took months to end. There's also the appeal court to >consider even in Shariah system. > >I don't think the legal system in Pakistan and Bangladesh is that bad. However, >it might happened in isolated place, on remote place, but highlighted in local >press, but the international version in your newspaper, gives the impression >such case is rampant in those countries. > >God knows best. > >salam >maarof > Just to add from my experience of covering such cases in Shariah court in Malaysia: Usually the accussed are from poor families, factory workers -- and being charged in court is already a big embarrassment to them and their families. Usually they pleaded guilty -- as a face saving measures fo their families. It is rare to defend such case in court, unless you are a son or daughter of somebody rich and has the means to pay the legal fees. I don't know the situations in other Muslim countries. Probably the same? maarof ------------------------------ From: jabriel@peoples.net (Jabriel Hanafi) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:12:19 -0500 Subject: al Muqtadir al Muqtadir Listen to the silence and omniscience between the letters B and E. Think how Isa walked on water as he heard this sound, or how Mohammed read and led divided tribes to Nationhood, or Moses found a sea which split in two. Do you think Isa said I co-create, or Mohammed said that anything could create or be a cause besides Allah? The Prophets lend a near perfect light for walking on a single path.. Through their footsteps one can unconceal the Truth. The shifting sands reveal the sensation of a footprint and begin to lend a clearing from which they seemed to move. And religions after each had passed along this liquid road of light produced an imprint to be reckoned with. Each demanded differences, each split like an obelisk shattered in division. The lesson still is being learned that differences do not divide that points of view might differ but the road is straight and wide. For some religion is a yoke to liberate, for some a whip to flagellate, while others harnessed nature , still a few found a passion inherent in the wilderness to be the fire which purified their souls. There have been those who cried that civilization would require a structure invented to bleed the passing time. And many who clung like sheep following thoughtlessly in an attempt to make some sense of what ever rules of dominates that which holds the greatest fear the primal call the noble nature of the self, the individuation of the soul. Why a near perfect light, for these Prophets, instead of a light that was whole? Why must we denounce our own ability to create or be the cause of anything? Why must we die before we live? The silent sound from the letters B and E exist outside of time's embrace but within power rules and Chronos wages war against a stage where each effect has completed its performance: leaving for death, one more tragic hero, and an audience filled with fear and sorrow; an old catharsis to relieve today tomorrow. Then what is this image that is called prime cause, projected within a world filled with explanation where reality is known by definition, measurement, and repeatability. Weak tea and foolishness just another explanation, a new enemy to conquer to raise the plane like Hiroshima and leave a cloud of smoke Being just an image I myself have run and hide. Behind my arrogance shivers the insanity of confusion as defiant I scoff at all definition and am left scratching this bald head! Great artists debate the notion of creation within the wilderness of nature, or classic structure leaving me feel like a poor orphan speechless while my friends say they and I are god Like parrots out of all context they mimic the words of Shaykes who are wise or fools leading the blind down crooked paths carved from broken tears and disappointment. We all know stories of the tide tales told of the un-cut block and the un-bleached silk and artists who could see, hear and feel and be the witnesses of Allah. The greatest sculpturer gifted with a will to see looks and finds the shape the stone's Creator promised before the hammer hits the head and marble pieces shatter to the ground! Yet for some a knowledge told in ancient Gnostic tales strikes outside the moment it brings in awe these knees, this head bowing down in supplication as it hears in silence the letters B and E first pronounced even now. Jabriel - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #52 ****************************