From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 12 07:49:11 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13664; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:08:19 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA07530; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 06:41:55 -0500 Received: from bbs.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA07460; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 06:41:50 -0500 Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by bbs.cruzio.com id aa18193; 11 Mar 96 23:48 PST X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:49:11 -0800 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: james hallam Subject: Re: For jabriel(see below4correctE-mail) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Sufi (Nimatullahi) email is ANurbakhsh@eworld.com NOT ANurbakhsh@world.com just wanted to save you time:) james hallam a student enrolled in a prepatory course in Sufism;) Nimatullahi Sufi Order From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 12 12:07:44 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17897; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:21:20 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA29014; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:21:18 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13548; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:07:53 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA21605; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:07:44 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:07:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199603121207.HAA21605@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Tue Mar 12 07:06:28 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA21161; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:06:27 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03278; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 01:58:54 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01I28DU1W6K0937ZZ5@jazz.ucc.uno.edu>; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:58:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:58:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: FYI To: TARIQAS@world.std.com, WINGED-HEART@SEAS.UPENN.EDU Message-Id: <01I28DU1WZHU937ZZ5@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: TARIQAS HEART Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: IN%"snag@worldramp.net" 11-MAR-1996 13:25:44.60 To: IN%"MULT-CUL@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" "Multiple recipients of list MULT-CUL" CC: Subj: [Fwd: Anncmnt: Conference in Calcutta, August 1997] Return-path: Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu) by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01I27ON3SU3K93I28U@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:56:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.35]) by listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (8.7.4/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA07540; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:40:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 0901 for MULT-CUL@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:36:04 -0500 Received: from UBVM (NJE origin SMTP@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6305; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:26:16 -0500 Received: from zeus by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:26:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from 199.233.67.24 by zeus with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #7) id m0twCDs-000EDZC; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:31:14 -0600 From: Jeff Hogan Subject: [Fwd: Anncmnt: Conference in Calcutta, August 1997] Sender: Multicultural List To: Multiple recipients of list MULT-CUL Reply-to: snag@worldramp.net Message-id: <31447F82.5E6D@worldramp.net> Organization: Resident Skinhead Philosopher MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Nikolai S. Rozov wrote: > > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:20:30 -0500 (EST) > From: Chandana Chakrabarti > To: "Nikolai S. Rozov" > > Dear Prof. Rozov: > I am sending you a copy of the announcement of an international > Conference in India. Could you please post this for your members? And > also please let me know about any other discussion group where we can > post this announcement. > Thanking you, > Sincerely, > C. Chakrabarti > The Society for Indian Philosophy & Religion will hold an International > Conference in Calcutta on August 1-4, l997. > > The Conference theme is Relativism: Science, Religion and Philosophy. > The theme can be addressed Critically, reflectively and creatively by the > philosophical, religious and scientific traditions of the world s great > civilizations. The program will include plenary addresses, volunteered > papers, invited papers and panel discussions. Registered participants who > are members of professional associations or societies are encouraged to > submit proposals for holding meetings in the Conference on behalf of their > associations or societies. The organizers are committed to upholding the > highest academic standards with emphasis on the exchange of ideas and face > to face dialogues among thinkers drawn from a wide range of the world s > cultural traditions and movements. > > How much will it cost? The advance registration fee for the conference is > $4O and the on site registration fee is $6O. The registration fee covers > special events and an Indian dinner. Arrangements have been made for > airline tickets at substantial discounts and a seven-day trip inside > India. Interested parties should contact the organizers. Hotel > reservations during the conference have also been made. Information will > also be available on line early in March, l996. > > Some suggested topics: Alternative Logics, Authority, Vilolence and > Social Order, Critique of Essentialism, Critique of Foundationalism, > Critique of Necessitarianism, Deconstruction, Evolutionary Epistemology, > Evolutionary Ethics, Fallibilism, Feminism and Rationality, Moral > Relativism, Non-Classical Mathematics, Rel ativity Theory and Quantum > Mechanics, Religious Pluralism. Scepticism and Agnosticism, Science of > Consciousness, Science and Paradigm Shift, Sociology of Knowledge, > Sociology of Religion . > > The Advisory Board Comprises: Karuna Bhattacharyya(India) Kisor. K. > Chakrabarti (USA), David Crowe (USA), Owen Flannagen (USA), Jay Garfield > (Australia), Steve Laycock (USA), Yoram Lubling (USA), William McBride > (USA), J. N. Mohanty (USA), Clair Myers (USA), Karl Potter (USA), John > Powers (Australia), Nityananda Saha (India), Sukharanjan Saha (India), > J. L. Shaw (New Zealand), John Sullivan (USA). We welcome your > participation and suggestions. For further information, contact the > Conference Director: Dr. Chandana Chakrabarti, CB 2336, Elon > College, Elon College, N.C. 27244, USA. E-Mail chakraba.@numen.elon.edu. > > Phone (9lO)538-27O5. > > Nikolai S. Rozov > Professor of Philosophy > > Moderator of the mailing list PHILOFHI > (PHILosophy OF HIstory and theoretical history) > http://darwin.clas.virginia.edu/~dew7e/anthronet/subscribe > /philofhi.html > > Dept. of Philosophy > Novosibirsk State University Fax.: (3832) 355237 > 630090, Novosibirsk E-mail: rozov@cnit.nsu.ru > Pirogova 2 > RUSSIA -- ************ **************** snag@worldramp.net Staff Writer for http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~jjh91231 Central Florida Future From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 12 05:22:52 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07707; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:03:48 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA05809; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:33:50 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA05154; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:32:35 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01097; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:22:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:22:52 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Copyright laws (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. If anyone has the description of copyright laws, could you please forward it directly to Mackie at the following address, and not send it to the tariqas group? Thanks -- Habib From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Some time ago. someone posted a very useful description of copyright laws that I printed out then deleted. If someone still has it, could I pleased be forwarded a copy so that i may in turn forward it forth to another list inquiring about certain such rules? Thanks. =Mackie= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 12 07:57:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01262; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:44:15 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA17752; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 06:56:21 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA17309; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 06:55:16 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11736; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 02:58:16 -0500 Received: from Hardwicke.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0twOxW-000FflC; Mon, 11 Mar 96 23:57 PST Message-Id: Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 23:57 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Karim Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Karim Could one compare the winds of grace to anything? Allah is generous. Who could describe a peak experience? Who could describe Allah's generosity? His saint's lives or actions, self admitted reflective substitutes, courting the atmosphere of attributes: names infused Divine, the wine, the manna poured like water into deserts dry to feed the liberated hearts of children guided to the springs of springs, the burning bush, to nights sprinkled with constellations illuminating dreams rich with flights to other worlds to a zenith never seen, to heavens beyond the barriers of a history of imagination hurling into future generations the brilliance of the very word: to Be.! His saints cannot compare as beautiful as they might be with either knighthood, mastery or chivalry. Than how can this poor would be poet describe the genesis generated by an act of generosity from Allah! And yet through this study one might begin to see one's hidden will its not be confused with purpose, goals, or even some accomplishment. It requires an ability for surrender rather than a desire to achieve. That which is explored here; it is an atmosphere occupied by fools , like Percival or Simon, who act in a manner defying explanation, or even truer to the nature a prelude to good Romeo, Majnun who by a river waited for his love of Layla and in nostalgic agony turned into a steadfast weeping tree. These are idiots and fools whose power was exerted for no reason but to have what they could not contain and without comprehension become bigger than they knew themselves to be . That is to say they are unreasonable they are those who madly seem to be about the business living life through emerald opal opium lenses as though they were in paradise. they are a modern psychologists worse nightmare: they are in love with falling. These are idiots scalling mountains turning and returning with visions making rabbis, shaykhs and priests wince, shudder, finding the need to crucify, to protect the yahning innocence of their flocks These are the madmen of your God who know it takes a thousand seeds to have one blossom bloom these are the idiots who give away there hearts when broken holding up the pieces so that they can give again these are the fools in love with You Allah nostalgic stumbling and sometimes liquidating their souls, their spirits and their breath for just a mere illusion, in Your name in vain in the rich play portrayed upon this stage. How can we compare the generosity Allah between the attribute and essence which generates and moves the act, but to witness You to witness us to witness the theatrics, serenity, the joy the banquet and the play.. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 12 15:52:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02419; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:06:30 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA10890; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:56:37 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA10847; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:56:29 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18290; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:53:09 -0500 Received: from Sonora.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0twWNe-000FhIC; Tue, 12 Mar 96 07:52 PST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 07:52 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: test Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Not to be a bother but I am getting messages that people who have been trying to get through to me at my private e-mail address are having difficulty. To make certain that this is the case, and/or to put in the necessary correction by tracing and locating the error Please send me a e-mail reading "test" or "what ever" at dynamics@islandnet.com. Thanks. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 13 05:13:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19162; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:16:30 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA14960; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:16:29 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18217; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:13:45 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA14519; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:13:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:13:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199603130513.AAA14519@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Wed Mar 13 00:13:41 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA14500; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:13:40 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16471; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:11:21 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01I29O7GT4N493GGZH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu>; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:10:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:10:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: QUERY To: an525@lafn.org, chakraba@numen.elon.edu, rozov@cnit.nsu.ru Cc: TARIQAS@world.std.com, WINGED-HEART@SEAS.UPENN.EDU Message-Id: <01I29O7GT4N693GGZH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"an525@lafn.org" IN%"chakraba@numen.elon.edu" IN%"rozov@cnit.nsu.ru" X-Vms-Cc: TARIQAS HEART Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT A day or so ago, I forwarded a reposted announcement regarding a Calcutta conference (August, 1997) to several lists whose membership I assume might be interested in the conference aims and topics. One such member raised a question about how one of you (Ivan Ickvits or Chandana Chakrabarti or Nikolai S. Rozov) referred to her/himself as "Resident Skinhead Philosopher." The question raised was, Why and How are you using the word "skinhead." However trivial you might find this query, it is important to some. So I am hoping that you will honor the question by replying to me. I will then forward your explanation onward. Thanks. =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 13 06:26:23 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20580; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:29:18 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA22486; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:29:17 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19926; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:26:24 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA22192; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:26:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:26:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199603130626.BAA22192@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Wed Mar 13 01:26:20 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA22184; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:26:19 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19272; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:23:11 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01I29QWZSXDS93GGZH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu>; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:23:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:23:08 -0600 (CST) To: TARIQAS@world.std.com, WINGED-HEART@SEAS.UPENN.EDU Message-Id: <01I29QWZSXDU93GGZH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: TARIQAS HEART Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: IN%"ROZOV@cnit.nsu.ru" "Nikolai S. Rozov" 13-MAR-1996 00:18:49.42 To: IN%"MJVBEG@uno.edu" CC: Subj: RE: QUERY Return-path: Received: from mx.nsu.ru by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01I29QRAE41C93DFKX@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:18:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from cnit.nsu.ru by mx.nsu.ru (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA09227 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:06:52 +0600 Received: from CNIT/MAILQUEUE by cnit.nsu.ru (Mercury 1.21) ; 13 Mar 96 12:07:01 NSK-6 Received: from MAILQUEUE by CNIT (Mercury 1.21); 13 Mar 96 12:06:42 NSK-6 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:06:33 -0600 (NSK) From: "Nikolai S. Rozov" Subject: Re: QUERY To: MJVBEG@uno.edu Message-id: <40AA1B628E4@cnit.nsu.ru> Organization: Center of New Informational Tech. X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Hello, not me who used the word and no idea what it can mean (nothing in my dictionary) best, Nikolai > > A day or so ago, I forwarded a reposted announcement regarding a > Calcutta conference (August, 1997) to several lists whose membership > I assume might be interested in the conference aims and topics. One > such member raised a question about how one of you (Ivan Ickvits or > Chandana Chakrabarti or Nikolai S. Rozov) referred to her/himself as > "Resident Skinhead Philosopher." > > The question raised was, Why and How are you using the word "skinhead." > However trivial you might find this query, it is important to some. So > I am hoping that you will honor the question by replying to me. I will then > forward your explanation onward. > > Thanks. > > > =Mackie Blanton= > > Nikolai S. Rozov Professor of Philosophy Moderator of the mailing list PHILOFHI (PHILosophy OF HIstory and theoretical history) http://darwin.clas.virginia.edu/~dew7e/anthronet/subscribe /philofhi.html Dept. of Philosophy Novosibirsk State University Fax.: (3832) 355237 630090, Novosibirsk E-mail: rozov@cnit.nsu.ru Pirogova 2 RUSSIA From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 13 15:36:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12505; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:41:34 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA06066; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:41:37 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA06054; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:41:34 -0500 Received: from epix.net (grape.epix.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00882; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:36:40 -0500 Received: from lwbyppp100.epix.net (lwbyppp100.epix.net [199.224.69.100]) by epix.net (8.7.1/8.7) with SMTP id KAA15894; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:34:20 -0500 (EST) From: sarmad@epix.net (James Brody) To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: Bruce Miller <71762.3320@compuserve.com>, eprice@GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU Subject: The Most Beautiful Names Cards Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 15:36:28 GMT Message-Id: <3146ea0c.863808@mailhost.epix.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/32.182 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear friends, Last year a group of us were asked by our teacher, Reshad Feild, to learn the Ninety-Nine Names of God -- their meanings and their numbers. Years ago, Reshad's teacher, Bulent Rauf, underscored the central importance of learning the Names, and now this opportunity has been passed on to us. Being hopeless at anything to do with rote memory, I found it very difficult to learn the Names from a list or from chapters in a book. Since each Name has a unique living, identity, I found the presence of the Names much more accessible when contemplated in their uniqueness -- on an individual card. Thus began a six-month project to take each name with its calligraphy, translation, description, the Koranic verse, and its number and lay these out onto xeroxed, pocket-sized, golden-rectangle cards. Our Swiss friends seized upon the idea, translated the cards into German, and had them professionally printed at great expense -- two-sided, color ink, 12 pt. krome-kote card stock. Alas, us poorer, but equally determined Americans would also like to produce a beautifully printed set of cards for study and devotion. Thus, we are taking presale orders of $33 per set to cover the printing costs of $1800. We would like to make these cards available to members of the Tariqas mailing list. Our goal is to begin printing at the beginning of April. If you have any questions about the cards, please feel free to e-mail me, Bruce Miller, at: 71762.3320@compuserve.com. If you would like a xerox of a page of the artwork mailed to you, contact Ellen Price by e-mail at: eprice@GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU To place an order, make a check for $33.00 (includes shipping and gold box) to: The Living School c/o Ellen Price 821 E. Halcyon Street Tucson, AZ 85719 Thank you. Sincerely, Bruce Miller From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 13 15:32:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17701; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:50:01 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA05353; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:37:44 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA05329; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:37:38 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28843; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:33:10 -0500 Received: from James.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0twsXq-000FimC; Wed, 13 Mar 96 07:32 PST Message-Id: Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 07:32 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: ar Raqib Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ar Raqib Guide me and Guard me I beg You my Lord give me the capacity to be my intention so that my life is but one scintillating prayer with my breath which breathing me keeps me as direct as the center of the arrow's target let me be the apple of Your eye my Love fastidious to every detail, awake to each second in a moment drunk with Your Presence, Drunk with Your poise. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 14 01:35:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28622; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 20:45:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA23251; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 20:45:44 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23839; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 20:35:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA20510; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 20:35:28 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 20:35:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199603140135.UAA20510@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Joanna Gest ] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Wed Mar 13 20:32:34 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA20130; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 20:32:33 -0500 Received: from sub.sonic.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18487; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 20:26:01 -0500 Received: from sonic.Sonic.NET (joanna@sonic.net [199.4.118.11]) by sub.Sonic.NET (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA07251; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:21:10 -0800 Received: (from joanna@localhost) by sonic.Sonic.NET (8.7.4/8.6.10) id RAA26934; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:24:31 -0800 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:24:30 -0800 (PST) From: Joanna Gest To: Ivan Ickovits Cc: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu, Winged-Heart@seas.upenn.edu, tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: QUERY In-Reply-To: <199603130613.AA00220@lafn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nooene would think that Ivan or MJVBEG would have anyhting to do wiht Skinheads. I raised the question about who is the "Skinhead Administrator" named in the post forwarded from Calcutta India regarding a conference. Michael Gest On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Ivan Ickovits wrote: > > > Dear Sir: > > Your approach in this communication is very inconsiderate and > irresponsible. > > I resent that you have not taken the time or effort to identify whoever > referred to themself in this manner and addressed your letter > specifically to that individual and not to the full distribution of these > lists. > > Apologies by you would not be out of line. > > > Sincerely > > > Ivan Ickovits > > > > > A day or so ago, I forwarded a reposted announcement regarding a > >Calcutta conference (August, 1997) to several lists whose membership > >I assume might be interested in the conference aims and topics. One > >such member raised a question about how one of you (Ivan Ickvits or > >Chandana Chakrabarti or Nikolai S. Rozov) referred to her/himself as > >"Resident Skinhead Philosopher." > > > >The question raised was, Why and How are you using the word "skinhead." > >However trivial you might find this query, it is important to some. So > >I am hoping that you will honor the question by replying to me. I will then > >forward your explanation onward. > > > >Thanks. > > > > > >=Mackie Blanton= > > > > > > > > -- > <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>> > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 14 03:55:02 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09598; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:38:39 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA12433; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:56:07 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA12419; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:56:03 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14264; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:55:03 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:55:02 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Query (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu A day or so ago, I forwarded a reposted announcement regarding a Calcutta conference (August, 1997) to several lists whose membership I assume might be interested in the conference aims and topics. One such member raised a question about how one of you (Ivan Ickvits or Chandana Chakrabarti or Nikolai S. Rozov) referred to her/himself as "Resident Skinhead Philosopher." The question raised was, Why and How are you using the word "skinhead." However trivial you might find this query, it is important to some. So I am hoping that you will honor the question by replying to me. I will then forward your explanation onward. Thanks. =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 14 03:47:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12127; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:44:08 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA11807; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:50:34 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA11789; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:50:30 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10008; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:47:15 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:47:14 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: [Fwd: Anncmnt: Conference in Calcutta, August 1997] To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Jeff Hogan Nikolai S. Rozov wrote: > > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:20:30 -0500 (EST) > From: Chandana Chakrabarti > To: "Nikolai S. Rozov" > > Dear Prof. Rozov: > I am sending you a copy of the announcement of an international > Conference in India. Could you please post this for your members? And > also please let me know about any other discussion group where we can > post this announcement. > Thanking you, > Sincerely, > C. Chakrabarti > The Society for Indian Philosophy & Religion will hold an International > Conference in Calcutta on August 1-4, l997. > > The Conference theme is Relativism: Science, Religion and Philosophy. > The theme can be addressed Critically, reflectively and creatively by the > philosophical, religious and scientific traditions of the world s great > civilizations. The program will include plenary addresses, volunteered > papers, invited papers and panel discussions. Registered participants who > are members of professional associations or societies are encouraged to > submit proposals for holding meetings in the Conference on behalf of their > associations or societies. The organizers are committed to upholding the > highest academic standards with emphasis on the exchange of ideas and face > to face dialogues among thinkers drawn from a wide range of the world s > cultural traditions and movements. > > How much will it cost? The advance registration fee for the conference is > $4O and the on site registration fee is $6O. The registration fee covers > special events and an Indian dinner. Arrangements have been made for > airline tickets at substantial discounts and a seven-day trip inside > India. Interested parties should contact the organizers. Hotel > reservations during the conference have also been made. Information will > also be available on line early in March, l996. > > Some suggested topics: Alternative Logics, Authority, Vilolence and > Social Order, Critique of Essentialism, Critique of Foundationalism, > Critique of Necessitarianism, Deconstruction, Evolutionary Epistemology, > Evolutionary Ethics, Fallibilism, Feminism and Rationality, Moral > Relativism, Non-Classical Mathematics, Rel ativity Theory and Quantum > Mechanics, Religious Pluralism. Scepticism and Agnosticism, Science of > Consciousness, Science and Paradigm Shift, Sociology of Knowledge, > Sociology of Religion . > > The Advisory Board Comprises: Karuna Bhattacharyya(India) Kisor. K. > Chakrabarti (USA), David Crowe (USA), Owen Flannagen (USA), Jay Garfield > (Australia), Steve Laycock (USA), Yoram Lubling (USA), William McBride > (USA), J. N. Mohanty (USA), Clair Myers (USA), Karl Potter (USA), John > Powers (Australia), Nityananda Saha (India), Sukharanjan Saha (India), > J. L. Shaw (New Zealand), John Sullivan (USA). We welcome your > participation and suggestions. For further information, contact the > Conference Director: Dr. Chandana Chakrabarti, CB 2336, Elon > College, Elon College, N.C. 27244, USA. E-Mail chakraba.@numen.elon.edu. > > Phone (9lO)538-27O5. > > Nikolai S. Rozov > Professor of Philosophy > > Moderator of the mailing list PHILOFHI > (PHILosophy OF HIstory and theoretical history) > http://darwin.clas.virginia.edu/~dew7e/anthronet/subscribe > /philofhi.html > > Dept. of Philosophy > Novosibirsk State University Fax.: (3832) 355237 > 630090, Novosibirsk E-mail: rozov@cnit.nsu.ru > Pirogova 2 > RUSSIA -- ************ **************** snag@worldramp.net Staff Writer for http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~jjh91231 Central Florida Future From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 14 04:02:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13201; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:46:32 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA13420; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:04:30 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA13402; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:04:25 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17604; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:02:52 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:02:51 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re Query (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu From: "Nikolai S. Rozov" Hello, not me who used the word and no idea what it can mean (nothing in my dictionary) best, Nikolai > > A day or so ago, I forwarded a reposted announcement regarding a > Calcutta conference (August, 1997) to several lists whose membership > I assume might be interested in the conference aims and topics. One > such member raised a question about how one of you (Ivan Ickvits or > Chandana Chakrabarti or Nikolai S. Rozov) referred to her/himself as > "Resident Skinhead Philosopher." > > The question raised was, Why and How are you using the word "skinhead." > However trivial you might find this query, it is important to some. So > I am hoping that you will honor the question by replying to me. I will then > forward your explanation onward. > > Thanks. > > > =Mackie Blanton= > > Nikolai S. Rozov Professor of Philosophy Moderator of the mailing list PHILOFHI (PHILosophy OF HIstory and theoretical history) http://darwin.clas.virginia.edu/~dew7e/anthronet/subscribe /philofhi.html Dept. of Philosophy Novosibirsk State University Fax.: (3832) 355237 630090, Novosibirsk E-mail: rozov@cnit.nsu.ru Pirogova 2 RUSSIA From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 14 04:10:44 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21521; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:58:26 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA14841; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:13:19 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA14826; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:13:15 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21780; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:10:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:10:44 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Cross-posting of messages To: tariqas@world.std.com, Winged-Heart@seas.upenn.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. We have recently had a series of cross-posted messages to our two discussion lists. I would like to request that members of both lists try to limit this type of thing when possible. I don't know how Winged-Heart works, but every time I get a post from an address not subscribed to tariqas, it means a bounced messsage that I must forward manually. Thanks! Habib Rose host of tariqas From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 14 04:07:53 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24226; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 00:02:26 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA14212; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:10:02 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA14189; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:09:56 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20169; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:07:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:07:53 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: QUERY (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Joanna Gest To: Ivan Ickovits Cc: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu, Winged-Heart@seas.upenn.edu, tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: QUERY In-Reply-To: <199603130613.AA00220@lafn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nooene would think that Ivan or MJVBEG would have anyhting to do wiht Skinheads. I raised the question about who is the "Skinhead Administrator" named in the post forwarded from Calcutta India regarding a conference. Michael Gest On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Ivan Ickovits wrote: > > > Dear Sir: > > Your approach in this communication is very inconsiderate and > irresponsible. > > I resent that you have not taken the time or effort to identify whoever > referred to themself in this manner and addressed your letter > specifically to that individual and not to the full distribution of these > lists. > > Apologies by you would not be out of line. > > > Sincerely > > > Ivan Ickovits > > > > > A day or so ago, I forwarded a reposted announcement regarding a > >Calcutta conference (August, 1997) to several lists whose membership > >I assume might be interested in the conference aims and topics. One > >such member raised a question about how one of you (Ivan Ickvits or > >Chandana Chakrabarti or Nikolai S. Rozov) referred to her/himself as > >"Resident Skinhead Philosopher." > > > >The question raised was, Why and How are you using the word "skinhead." > >However trivial you might find this query, it is important to some. So > >I am hoping that you will honor the question by replying to me. I will then > >forward your explanation onward. > > > >Thanks. > > > > > >=Mackie Blanton= > > > > > > > > -- > <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>> > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 14 06:58:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06132; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 02:37:16 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA25097; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 02:01:23 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA25074; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 02:01:19 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23880; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 01:58:45 -0500 Received: from i8.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0tx6zY-000FlDC; Wed, 13 Mar 96 22:58 PST Message-Id: Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 22:58 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: al Mujib Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: al Mujib Here is a secret. It begins with the breath, no before, what it is you do not know, it demands that it be taken. It stands behind the inhaile, it pushes from someplace where the exhail is expelled and before you know what has occured the responce of Allah has all but diappeared know one can see the invisible hand of love generating light on every cell of life without the benifit of distinction free as the adoration of a Creator for its creation close as the organs and the spirit directing machinery more resonant, than a mind, the beating of a heart, or even intuition. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 15 03:51:08 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23608; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:54:08 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA19280; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:54:08 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22217; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:51:08 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA18788; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:51:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:51:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199603150351.WAA18788@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Thu Mar 14 22:51:04 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA18777; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:51:03 -0500 From: TIMFAM@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20993; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:49:07 -0500 Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA19542 for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:49:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:49:06 -0500 Message-Id: <960314224905_168909415@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: unsubscribe please unsubscribe please From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 15 14:29:47 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08470; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:42:39 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA17803; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:35:06 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03973; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:37:19 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA16967; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:29:47 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:29:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199603151429.JAA16967@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Fri Mar 15 09:29:45 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA16960; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:29:44 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00346; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:31:15 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01I2D0JPX6J493HTHI@jazz.ucc.uno.edu>; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:31:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:31:17 -0600 (CST) To: ADABIYAT@LISTHOST.UCHICAGO.EDU, TARIQAS@world.std.com, WINGED-HEART@SEAS.UPENN.EDU Message-Id: <01I2D0JPXZGY93HTHI@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: ADABIYAT TARIQAS HEART Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: IN%"MULTC-ED@UMDD.UMD.EDU" "Multicultural Education Discussion" 14-MAR-1996 16:58:31.60 To: IN%"MULTC-ED@UMDD.UMD.EDU" "Multiple recipients of list MULTC-ED" CC: Subj: Save Ravnish Gupta! (fwd) Return-path: Received: from wnt.dc.lsoft.com (wnt.dc.lsoft.com) by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01I2C3Y6IUWW93JOBZ@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:58:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM (205.186.43.4) by wnt.dc.lsoft.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.0a) with SMTP id 5204A840 ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 17:54:41 -0500 Received: from UMDD.UMD.EDU by UMDD.UMD.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) with NJE id 7378 for MULTC-ED@UMDD.UMD.EDU; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 17:56:45 -0500 Received: from UMDD.UMD.EDU by UMDD.UMD.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with BSMTP id 3301; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 17:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from udc.es by UMDD.UMD.EDU ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 17:56:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by udc.es (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA11864; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 23:57:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 23:57:07 +0100 From: Cathryn Teasley Subject: Save Ravnish Gupta! (fwd) Sender: Multicultural Education Discussion To: Multiple recipients of list MULTC-ED Reply-to: Multicultural Education Discussion Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-cc: linguist@tamvm1.tam.edu Hope this message reaches someone who can help. I've also sent it to LINGUIST List. ........................................................................... Cathryn Teasley E-mail: cathryn@udc.es Universidade da Corunha Fax: (34)(81)132459 Departamento de Filologia Inglesa Tel: (34)(81)130457 Ext.1807 Faculdade de Filologia Campus Elvinha, s/n 15071 A Corunha ESPANHA (SPAIN) ........................................................................... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 20:49:15 -0500 From: ranadive@usa.pipeline.com To: postcolonial@jefferson.village.virginia.edu Subject: Fwd: [Ravnish Gupta : Save a Life (fwd)] Please read!!! Help if you can, pass along the info if not !! --------------------- Forwarded message: From: fmr3438@IS.NYU.EDU (Franklin M. Ricarte) Sender: QAPA-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Queer Asian Pacific Americans Discussion List) Reply-to: QAPA-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Queer Asian Pacific Americans Discussion List) To: QAPA-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Multiple recipients of list QAPA-L) Date: 96-02-27 13:30:35 EST >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 23:49:37 -0800 >From: Manoj Khiani >To: kmanoj@pasteur.EECS.Berkeley.EDU >Subject: Save a Life > >Please read this message. It is very important that you forward this to >as many Indians (South Asians, for that matter) as possible. Thanx. > >Subject: Help for Leukemia : Broadcast this please >Subject: HELP SAVE A LIFE !! [1] (fwd) >**************** > > >Dear Friends, >My name is Vrushali Ranadive and I am a 23 year old woman of Indian >background. I am asking for your help in saving my life. Last June >1994, just three weeks after graduating from college, I was diagnosed >with chronic myelogenous leukemia (CML). Many leukemia patients are >cured with a bone marrow transplant which involves receiving marrow >>From a matched donor. I wasunable to find a match within my family so >I have turned my hopes to the National Marrow Donor Program's (NMDP) >volunteer donor registry. > >In April 1995 a perfect match was located for me through NMDP and I >thought I would have a chance at being cured. Instead my worst fears >came true -the person decided not to proceed with the donation which could >save my life. Withouth a donor I don't have a chance to be cured; but you >could help give me another chance! > >There are two things you can do to help me in my quest to live a long >and healthy life. First, we are trying to locate this "lost" donor and >the best way to do that is to widely publicize my situation in the >hope that the person will hear my story and reconsider. Because NMDP >follows certain confidentiality rules, we are unable to know the name >of this donor and establish direct contact. However, we may have a >chance at reaching the donor or someone who knows him/her through this >appeal. Please forward this information and/or home page address to >your relatives and Indian friends across the country. > >Second, you can help me and all other Indians looking for marrow >donors by getting more Indians (or for that matter all South Asians) >to join the NMDP registry of volunteers. This includes getting >yourself typed and joining the registry, as well as holding drives >through your community, religious/cultural organization, or college >to get more Indians in the NMDP registry. The best chances for >finding a match are within the same ethnic community and presently >there are so few Indians in the registry that we are having a >difficult time finding matches. Currently there are more than 10 >Indians in the US looking for matches, none of whom are having any >luck. Adding more people to the registry will improve our chances of >finding a donor, and may give us the life-saving miracle match we need. > >I encourage you to become involved in this cause which is not only >important to me, but to the South Asian community at large. It is up >to everyone to come together and help one another. Remember, through >your efforts you may be able to accomplish the most extraordinary >thing -- help save someone's life! > >Please do not hesitate to call me at home in the evenings at >(212)697-2928 or send me email at ranadive@usa.pipeline.com for more >information regarding what you can do to help, or for information about the >NMDP registry. More information regarding the procedure, donor centers or >upcoming drives can be found on the World-Wide Web at >http://greenmfg.me.berkeley.edu/marrow/ > >THE GIFT YOU MAY BE ABLE TO GIVE IS THE GREATEST GIFT OF ALL -- THE GIFT OF >LIFE! > >Thank you, >Vrushali. > >EMAIL: ranadive@usa.pipeline.com >WWW : http://greenmfg.me.berkeley.edu/marrow/ >Ph : (212)697-2928 >****************** > _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ FRANKLIN M. RICARTE QUEER UNION at NYU New York University URL: http://pages.nyu.edu/clubs/QU fmr3438@is.nyu.edu email: queer.union@nyu.edu (212) 443-9834 email list: queer-union@lists.nyu.edu voicemail: (212) 998-4938 "Good ideas are not adopted automatically. They must be driven into practice with courageous patience." -Admiral Hyman Rickover _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ --- from list postcolonial@lists.village.virginia.edu --- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 15 14:58:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19357; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:38:33 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA21090; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:03:42 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA21075; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:03:38 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23062; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:58:37 -0500 Received: from Snake.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0txaxE-000FalC; Fri, 15 Mar 96 06:58 PST Message-Id: Date: Fri, 15 Mar 96 06:58 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: al Wasi Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Wasi When I have followed my Pir in meditation the atmosphere or presence of something like al wasi has been noticed, this is a place where he can be found gently coaxing his mureeds standing on the fringe of reality as he enlightens and edifies what it means to carve new landscapes of reality and new vistas for his friends to explore. He starts by carrying them upon his own breath like Pegasus lifting them high then almost incedently slips away, and from an abyss called eternity can be heard saying:, "Come along. Now! Use your own wings. Come on, you can do it"! The infinite of the eternal washes away every blemish This is the generosity of Allah, here truth is pristine it is like the snow cleansing everything leaving only the residue of residues perfect purity an incense which permeates and is so refined it slips past the locks and at ease enters into heaven in the form of refreshing prayer the membrane burst all concepts vanish and all that's left is light upon light wave sweeping through the silence where music is heard from the heart and each chord is played like a link joining a memory into the presence of a sacred moment here the future becomes filtered stars whirling worlds and boiling galaxies lends substance to the beauty of an infinitesimal microbe pulsating in and out of reality Here the distance between the macrocosm and the microcosm is nil hear there is only the beating heart of Allah, the turning of saints, the gardens of teachers the flowers their mureeds brought like bouquets This is a part of the cosmic celebration this is the gift of being drunk, a fool and in love. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 12 05:14:59 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22983; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 14:13:32 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA09510; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:41:02 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA08945; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:39:58 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29071; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:15:00 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:14:59 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Arrow to archer (in reply to previous message: Archer) (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: From:aorsellidickson@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au message subject: Arrow to archer (in reply to previous message: Archer) hidden triangle of divine 3 movement 6 9 3333333333333333333333333333333333333333 qalb's eye sees only the Light behind light our marrow is the wick 666its oil neither from the east nor from the west666 shines through when the wind of suuuf blows from the lips of Beloved Hu 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 15 19:55:40 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19832; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:41:10 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA04451; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:02:25 -0500 Received: from internet.roadrunner.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA04430; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:02:20 -0500 Received: from ([206.206.168.133]) by internet.roadrunner.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA18025 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:55:40 -0700 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:55:40 -0700 Message-Id: <199603151955.MAA18025@internet.roadrunner.com> X-Sender: hakim@roadrunner.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: hakim@roadrunner.com (Hakim Archuletta) X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: There are several Hadith from the Prophet, may Allahs Blessings and Peace be on him that are expressed as threes. Three things that.. and so forth. One of these Hadith: Three sounds most loved by the angels are: The sound of the scholars pen as it writes. The sound of wool as it is spun. and the sound of the arrow as it leaves the bow. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 16 03:01:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29423; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 22:55:24 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA04173; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 22:53:20 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02607; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 22:03:10 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA00651; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 22:01:50 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 22:01:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199603160301.WAA00651@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Fri Mar 15 18:54:07 1996 Return-Path: Received: from riverside.mr.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA27744; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 18:54:04 -0500 Received: from dialup-1-16.gw.umn.edu by riverside.mr.net (8.6.12/SMI-4.1.R931202) id RAA02549; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 17:53:47 -0600 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 17:53:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199603152353.RAA02549@riverside.mr.net> X-Sender: norton@ast1.spa.umn.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@europe.std.com From: norton@ast1.spa.umn.edu (Jim Norton) Subject: unsubscribe unsubscribe From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 16 14:53:27 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02905; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:55:50 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA26418; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:55:49 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02074; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:53:27 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAB26281; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:53:27 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:53:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199603161453.JAB26281@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Hi ] Status: RO X-Status: A >From habib@world.std.com Sat Mar 16 09:53:24 1996 Return-Path: Received: from renoir.smedia.com.sg by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA26269; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:53:22 -0500 Received: from CYBER1.pacific.net.sg by renoir.smedia.com.sg via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id XAA02116; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 23:04:21 +0800 Message-ID: <314AD5DE.24E9@netcape.com> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 22:53:18 +0800 From: Hi X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: al Kabir References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Send back if you are still there Jabreil Hanafi wrote: > > al Kabir > > How far can the mind expand before it shatters; > start with the heart which can expand much further > start with that which will allow itself to break; > an ocean of love, just a liquid body spilled upon the floor, > another drop with creatures perceiving something of their source; > passing the passing time with a conception, > an idol or self image, a ritual, and a belief ; > ultimately the wrong tunnel a mystic holy doctrine > spoken and heard by most as something very rude From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 16 16:17:01 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13347; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:41:58 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA03661; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:23:12 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA03643; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:23:08 -0500 Received: from lafn.ORG by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03610; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:17:29 -0500 Received: by lafn.org id AA04466 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Sat, 16 Mar 1996 08:17:01 -0800 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 08:17:01 -0800 Message-Id: <199603161617.AA04466@lafn.org> From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) To: Winged-Heart@seas.upenn.edu, tariqas@world.std.com Subject: [phanes@cris.com: Comet viewing guide (resend)] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Ones: More on comets whizzing by to stir the conscious and unconscious. Raqib Online (http://www.skypub.com) COMET HYAKUTAKE, currently brightening daily, should become the brightest comet since Comet West in 1976. It should far outshine Comet Halley of 1985-86. Sky & Telescope magazine predicts that unless it fades very unexpectedly, Comet Hyakutake should be visible to the naked eye every clear, dark night from late March through late April for people throughout the world's north temperate latitudes. The comet, also known to astronomers as C/1996 B2, was discovered on January 30th by Japanese amateur astronomer Yuji Hyakutake in Kagoshima. He has been systematically hunting for comets with giant 25 x 150 binoculars. A month earlier, on December 25th, he discovered a much fainter comet, C/1995 Y1, which also bears the name Comet Hyakutake. (Hyakutake is pronounced "hyah-koo-tah-kay" [55K wav file], not "hi-ah-koo-tah-kee." All four syllables receive approximately equal emphasis.) His newest find soon proved to be heading in the general direction of Earth. In late March it will fly just 9.5 million miles past us (over the North Pole), which is quite close as solar-system distances go. This is part of why it will appear unusually bright. The comet will then head toward the Sun, dimming somewhat for a couple of weeks as it leaves the Earth behind but then rebrightening from mid- to late April as it swings near the Sun's intense heat and light. Nobody should miss the chance to see this astronomical marvel! The information here will enable you to find and view the comet for yourself -- even if you have no skywatching experience. Remember that a comet does not shoot across the sky like a meteor. It will remain visible for weeks on end, usually for many hours each clear night. It will appear as a little glowing cloud with a slightly brighter core and perhaps a dim tail. The first thing to do is find a dark viewing site. To see the comet well -- or perhaps at all -- you'll need to get away from glary outdoor lights and give your eyes time to adapt to the dark. And unless the comet performs very well, you may also need to get out from under the milky glow of light pollution that fills the night sky over cities and suburbs and washes out the view of most of the universe. On the other hand, there's no predicting exactly how bright the comet will become. The only way to tell whether you can see it through the light pollution over your home is to go out and try! You'll need to know where to look. Here is Sky & Telescope magazine's viewing calendar for what might turn out to be "the Great Comet of 1996." (The following descriptions apply throughout the world's north temperate latitudes except from March 22nd through 27th, when they are accurate only for North America.) MARCH 1-18. Still distant but heading our way, Comet Hyakutake is visible with binoculars in the constellation Libra, gradually creeping northward from night to night. Libra is a very dim constellation that's at its highest around 3 or 4 a.m., fairly low in the southern sky. Successful comet catchers during this period will be people who know the constellations and use binoculars. The comet will be a small, unimpressive, fuzzy ball in binoculars, slowly brightening from about magnitude 6 to magnitude 4. Moonlight will pose some interference through the morning of March 12th, then will diminish and disappear by the morning of the 16th. The comet is near the 3rd-magnitude star Alpha Librae on the mornings of March 11th through 15th. MARCH 19-20. Brightening and accelerating its northward pace in a sky now free of moonlight, Comet Hyakutake crosses the eastern edge of the constellation Virgo near Serpens. It's high in the southeastern sky as early as 1 a.m. Again, the comet is still for those who know the constellations and use binoculars. MARCH 21. Newcomers to skywatching have their first easy chance to find the comet tonight and tomorrow. On Thursday night, March 21st, go out around 11 p.m. local time. Face east, look high, and spot the brightest star in this part the sky. The star is Arcturus; you can't miss it. Hold your fist out at arm's length in front of you. Sighting past it, look one fist-width below Arcturus. That's the location of the comet's head. If it has any tail, the tail will extend to the right. Bring binoculars for a better view! MARCH 22. Find Arcturus again as described for March 21st. The comet is now about a fist-width to Arcturus's left. It may be noticeably larger than last night. MARCH 23. Now you can start from Arcturus in the eastern sky as early as 10 or even 9 p.m. local time. Look for Comet Hyakutake about two fist widths to its left. The comet is about equidistant from Arcturus and the end star in the handle of the Big Dipper, which is higher in the northeast. The view should get somewhat better later in the evening, when the comet, Arcturus, and the Big Dipper all move higher into a less light-polluted part of the sky. MARCH 24. Tonight the comet is closest to Earth, looking as large as it will get. After twilight has completely faded out, find the Big Dipper standing on its handle partway up the northeastern sky. The comet is less than a fist-width to the left or lower left of the Big Dipper's bottom star, the star at the end of the Dipper's handle. Again, the Dipper and comet rise higher into better visibility later in the evening. By midnight they're nearly overhead when you face northeast, with the comet appearing below the end segment of the Dipper's handle. The waxing crescent Moon sets around then too. Astronomers express some concern that despite being near and big around this date, the comet may prove hard to see -- exactly because it will appear big. Its light will be spread out over a relatively wide area, making it especially vulnerable to the ill effects of light pollution. In a dark sky, the comet's head -- the brightest part -- may be nearly as big as your little fingernail held at arm's length. Through light pollution, you may be able to see only the brightest inner part of the head, which will be smaller. The tail will be the largest but dimmest part. The best optical instrument for viewing the comet on any night will be a pair of binoculars. The bigger the binoculars' front lenses the better. A telescope provides a narrow-field view that will show only a part of the comet at once. If you try a telescope, be sure to use its lowest magnification. MARCH 25. The comet is visible all night in the north. After dark, examine the sky about two fist-widths left of the Big Dipper's handle. (This point is near the bowl of the much fainter Little Dipper.) The view will improve late in the evening as the Moon, nearly first quarter, gets low near setting. By midnight the Big Dipper is nearly overhead in the north, and the comet appears about two fist-widths directly below its center. MARCH 26. Tonight the comet is near the rather dim North Star, Polaris, which is about halfway up the sky due north. To find Polaris in the evening, locate the Big Dipper very high in the northeast to north, almost overhead. Follow the line formed by the two front stars of the Big Dipper's bowl -- called the "Pointers" -- about three fist-widths toward the lower left. (If you're looking later at night, they point straight down instead.) Moonlight will interfere with the view to some extent until the first-quarter Moon sets around 1 or 2 a.m. local time. =46inder charts (B&W, 39K gif); (Color, 57K gif): These charts track Comet Hyakutake's position among the stars and the possible orientation of the comet's tail from late March through late April. (The B&W version is provided for ease of printing.) The stars and horizon are correct for viewing in the United States at about 10 p.m. in late March and just as the sky becomes fully dark in late April. During the entire period when the comet is in the sky, Venus is the most prominent "evening star"; it too moves slowly the stars. The crescent Moon joins the scene in the third week of April. MARCH 27. Early evening is when Comet Hyakutake is highest from this date on -- but moonlight is an increasing problem from now until April 5th. Tonight, if you go out soon after the end of twilight, look about one fist-width (or maybe slightly more) to the left of Polaris in the north. (Find Polaris from the Big Dipper as described above.) The Moon sets around 2 a.m. tonight, leaving a darker sky. If you look at that time or later, the comet is about 1-1/2 fist-widths below Polaris. MARCH 28-29. After twilight ends, look west for dazzlingly bright Venus, the "Evening Star." To Venus's upper right by about three fist-widths at arm's length, spot the bright star Capella. It's not nearly as bright as Venus but brighter than any other star in the area. Venus and Capella will be your landmarks for finding Comet Hyakutake for the next month. On the evenings of March 28th and 29th, find the point halfway between Capella and Polaris. Look for the comet a little below that point. It is fading now as it flies Sunward away from Earth. MARCH 30-31. Locate Capella and Polaris soon after nightfall as described above. Find the point a third of the way from Capella to Polaris, and look about one fist-width at arm's length below that point. APRIL 1-4. Although the comet is shrinking and fading, its head and general outline may start becoming more sharply defined, a process that should continue through late April. A comet's tail always points in the direction away from the Sun; currently the Sun is below the west-northwestern horizon at nightfall. This means the tail will extend upward, leaning a little to the right, for the rest of the month. In early April, look about two fist-widths to the lower right of Capella and almost three fist-widths to the right or upper right of Venus (which, incidentally, is next to the Pleiades star cluster; take a look with your binoculars). The modestly bright star near the comet these nights is Alpha Persei, also known as Mirfak. In early evening on April 3rd, skywatchers in the northeasternmost United States and Canada get a brief respite from moonlight -- because the full Moon goes into an eclipse! The Moon will be totally eclipsed from 6:26 to 7:53 p.m. Eastern Standard Time (which will be during twilight for points farther south and west). A full writeup of this eclipse and what to watch for is in the April Sky & Telescope, page 68. APRIL 5-12. The sky is now completely free of moonlight shortly after darkness falls. You'll find the comet two fist-widths to the right of Venus, possibly just a little lower depending on the date and your location. The moderately bright (2nd-magnitude) star near the comet's head from April 7th to 11th is Algol, or Beta Persei. During this period the comet should be at its minimum brightness for April. APRIL 13-28. Scan low in the northwest every clear evening right around the end of twilight. In mid-April the comet is to the lower right of brilliant Venus by about two fist-widths, and in late April by three fist-widths. During this time the comet should brighten again, and the tail may lengthen even as the head becomes more compact. The comet's head will get a little lower to the horizon each day. By late April it will be so low that you'll need a good, open view of the northwestern horizon. You'll also have to look a little before twilight fades away completely. Bring the binoculars! APRIL 29 and later. The comet swings closest to the Sun (21 million miles) on May 1st, but by then it has become hidden in the Sun's glare. After its solar flyby ("perihelion"), the comet swings rapidly south; it never comes back into view for observers at mid-northern latitudes. Rapidly fading, it becomes an object for Southern Hemisphere astronomers in mid- and late May. By summer it will have faded to telescope-only visibility. =46or additional information about Comet Hyakutake, including orbital elements and an ephemeris, see the companion article by Roger W. Sinnott. Alan MacRobert is an Associate Editor of Sky & Telescope magazine and an avid backyard astronomer. LIGHT POLLUTION: A COMET'S WORST ENEMY Would-be comet-watchers today face a problem that did not exist when our great-grandparents witnessed the impressive comets of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, which left a great imprint on popular culture. Light pollution has spread so much in the last few decades that it compromises the view of the stars for an estimated 90 percent of Americans. For about half of us, the stars no longer really come out at all. Yet most light pollution is unnecessary. It is not an inevitable result of having well-lit streets and cities. As much as three fourths of the murky glow you see in the sky at night is waste light beaming directly skyward from poorly designed or improperly installed light fixtures. A standard security light, for instance, may send roughly half of its rays above horizontal -- directly into the sky -- rather than down toward the ground where the light does any good. The upward half is pure waste. If the fixture is replaced with a well-designed, "full-cutoff shielded" fixture of various types now available -- one that directs all the light down where it's supposed to go -- the bulb wattage can be cut by half for a big electricity saving. The quality of illumination is actually improved, because of the reduction in glare, the near-horizontal beams that dazzle your eyes directly from a bulb. And we regain some of the lost starry heavens. America wastes about $1.5 billion per year in electricity bills needlessly spilling light into the sky, according to a study by the International Dark-Sky Association (IDA), a nonprofit group founded to educate the public and industry about light pollution. More on light pollution is available from the IDA at 3545 N. Stewart, Tucson, AZ 85716, U.S.A. Or point your Web browser to http://www.darksky.org/~ida. Sky & Telescope supports the IDA's efforts. -- <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>> From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 16 18:28:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22602; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:30:40 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA13863; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:30:38 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21810; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:28:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA13630; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:28:42 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:28:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199603161828.NAA13630@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Sat Mar 16 13:28:40 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA13617; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:28:39 -0500 Received: from carr8.acpub.duke.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21530; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:27:47 -0500 Received: (from sos@localhost) by carr8.acpub.duke.edu (8.7.1/Duke-3.0) id NAA00786; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:27:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:27:45 -0500 (EST) From: Omid Safi Cc: TARIQAS@world.std.com Subject: subscribe In-Reply-To: <01I2D0QNN6L893HTHI@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII subscribe tariqas From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 17 02:21:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03101; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:53:02 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA19865; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:23:35 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA19847; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:23:31 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20690; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:21:30 -0500 Received: from Lasqueti.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ty85r-000FbEC; Sat, 16 Mar 96 18:21 PST Message-Id: Date: Sat, 16 Mar 96 18:21 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: al Wadud Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: al Wadud As I dive down into the depth of my soul I begin to swim in a moonlight which thirsts for the beams of a star, without which the crescent is as incomplete as Rumi's broken reed. There is only one Friend and then a rude reflection no matter how refined and highly polished the mirror. The self image at best lives in a world of existence the friend is the world of Reality of Truth the two can only find union by way of a love unknown amongst the antiseptic and civilisation's good reason. So let us salute the drunk no one is suppose to understand and let us follow the crooked path of the ecstatic but don't expect the lover to lead you anywhere but into ruin These are the souls whose prayers include being stretched across the floors of hell so that the feet of their kin wont be burnt these are the souls whose eyes are blinded with a love for the Friend which give the name of Sufi or Hasid or Bench Sitter a bad name. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 17 04:52:39 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15846; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 00:10:02 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA00973; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 23:53:55 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA00968; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 23:53:52 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11895; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 23:52:40 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 23:52:39 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: HELP SAVE A LIFE !! [1] (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu >Subject: Help for Leukemia : Broadcast this please >Subject: HELP SAVE A LIFE !! [1] (fwd) >**************** > > >Dear Friends, >My name is Vrushali Ranadive and I am a 23 year old woman of Indian >background. I am asking for your help in saving my life. Last June >1994, just three weeks after graduating from college, I was diagnosed >with chronic myelogenous leukemia (CML). Many leukemia patients are >cured with a bone marrow transplant which involves receiving marrow >>From a matched donor. I wasunable to find a match within my family so >I have turned my hopes to the National Marrow Donor Program's (NMDP) >volunteer donor registry. > >In April 1995 a perfect match was located for me through NMDP and I >thought I would have a chance at being cured. Instead my worst fears >came true -the person decided not to proceed with the donation which could >save my life. Withouth a donor I don't have a chance to be cured; but you >could help give me another chance! > >There are two things you can do to help me in my quest to live a long >and healthy life. First, we are trying to locate this "lost" donor and >the best way to do that is to widely publicize my situation in the >hope that the person will hear my story and reconsider. Because NMDP >follows certain confidentiality rules, we are unable to know the name >of this donor and establish direct contact. However, we may have a >chance at reaching the donor or someone who knows him/her through this >appeal. Please forward this information and/or home page address to >your relatives and Indian friends across the country. > >Second, you can help me and all other Indians looking for marrow >donors by getting more Indians (or for that matter all South Asians) >to join the NMDP registry of volunteers. This includes getting >yourself typed and joining the registry, as well as holding drives >through your community, religious/cultural organization, or college >to get more Indians in the NMDP registry. The best chances for >finding a match are within the same ethnic community and presently >there are so few Indians in the registry that we are having a >difficult time finding matches. Currently there are more than 10 >Indians in the US looking for matches, none of whom are having any >luck. Adding more people to the registry will improve our chances of >finding a donor, and may give us the life-saving miracle match we need. > >I encourage you to become involved in this cause which is not only >important to me, but to the South Asian community at large. It is up >to everyone to come together and help one another. Remember, through >your efforts you may be able to accomplish the most extraordinary >thing -- help save someone's life! > >Please do not hesitate to call me at home in the evenings at >(212)697-2928 or send me email at ranadive@usa.pipeline.com for more >information regarding what you can do to help, or for information about the >NMDP registry. More information regarding the procedure, donor centers or >upcoming drives can be found on the World-Wide Web at >http://greenmfg.me.berkeley.edu/marrow/ > >THE GIFT YOU MAY BE ABLE TO GIVE IS THE GREATEST GIFT OF ALL -- THE GIFT OF >LIFE! > >Thank you, >Vrushali. > >EMAIL: ranadive@usa.pipeline.com >WWW : http://greenmfg.me.berkeley.edu/marrow/ >Ph : (212)697-2928 >****************** > _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ FRANKLIN M. RICARTE QUEER UNION at NYU New York University URL: http://pages.nyu.edu/clubs/QU fmr3438@is.nyu.edu email: queer.union@nyu.edu (212) 443-9834 email list: queer-union@lists.nyu.edu voicemail: (212) 998-4938 "Good ideas are not adopted automatically. They must be driven into practice with courageous patience." -Admiral Hyman Rickover _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ --- from list postcolonial@lists.village.virginia.edu --- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 17 05:15:26 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27764; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 00:28:59 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA02232; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 00:17:33 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA02223; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 00:17:29 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17412; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 00:15:26 -0500 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 00:15:26 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: HELP SAVE A LIFE !! message and the culture of the Net To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. I just forwarded a message to tariqas from a woman seeking assistance in finding a bone marrow transplant. I had edited out much of the message I received, since it consisted of perhaps ten forwards, cross-posts etc. And, then it struck me, what an amazing thing this Internet is. Here were a wildly varied group of people all getting involved in a situation with a sense of personal closeness -- as if they knew this woman and really cared about her (which they certainly seemed to!) What is going on here? Are we REALLY starting to feel connectedness with all other human beings? Is this a variation of "little Susie fell down the man-hole so let's put the story on the front page" (while ignoring stories about millions of people starving because they are not personalized enough?) Is it true that we can only care about those issues that we DO make a personal connection to? Or, is it perhaps that we can only afford to actively care about those issues that we feel empowered to actually do something about? That perhaps it hurts too much to open our hearts to the suffering of the world -- so we channel our concern into more limited areas of involvement? If so, are new powerful tools emerging on the Internet which will empower us to actually do something about more situations, therefore allowing us to be more caring?? Habib From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 17 16:45:37 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21632; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:03:50 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA11232; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:45:44 -0500 Received: from mail.pixi.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA11221; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:45:40 -0500 Received: from mothra22.pixi.com (mothra22.pixi.com [140.174.243.153]) by mail.pixi.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) with SMTP id GAA20053 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 06:45:37 -1000 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 06:45:37 -1000 Message-Id: <199603171645.GAA20053@mail.pixi.com> X-Sender: sanjuan5@mail.pixi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: A&B San Juan Subject: Re: Calligraphy/Art Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim Salaams. There is a wonderful bookstore in the Palo Alto area, near Stanford, East-West Books, if it is still there. They may have some Islamic Art or Calligraphy. Perhaps you should call to find out. Best wishes From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 18 09:18:36 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12425; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:35:19 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id EAA18451; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:20:14 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id EAA18434; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:20:11 -0500 From: informe@best.com Received: from blob.best.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10532; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:18:39 -0500 Received: from [204.156.129.34] (informe.vip.best.com [204.156.129.34]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id BAA26121 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:18:36 -0800 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:18:36 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Calligraphy/Art Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim > >Salaams. There is a wonderful bookstore in the Palo Alto area, near >Stanford, East-West Books, if it is still there. They may have some Islamic >Art or Calligraphy. Perhaps you should call to find out. > >Best wishes Salaams, They are now on Castro Street in Mountain View. You can also find them on the WWW. They carry a good selection of Sufi books. Hamza From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 18 08:56:47 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17942; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 05:04:37 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id EAA19554; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:45:27 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id EAA19549; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:45:24 -0500 Received: from peoples1.peoples.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13817; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 04:44:49 -0500 Received: from [198.70.76.3] ([198.70.76.3]) by peoples1.peoples.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA11852; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 03:17:14 -0600 Message-Id: <199603180917.DAA11852@peoples1.peoples.net> To: Ecopsychology Mailing List , Tariqas Subject: A Symphony Date: Mon, 18 Mar 96 03:56:47 -0500 From: "Wm. Whitney" X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- [ From: Wm. Whitney * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Journals in Chaos by Wm. Whitney Fallen Sisters 03/17/96 7:50:00 PM Twenty years ago, I remember sitting in a San Francisco auditorium watching Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan enchant two hundred people with stories and songs. The experience has repeated itself several times. So, I welcomed the opportunity of sitting with my old friend once again this weekend. For those of you who have asked, I submit the following report: +++++++++++++ "It's a healin' time, folks! Step right on down and get some!" The Dances for World Peace offers a breathtaking venue for healing. Friday night last saw 100 gather in healing circles to dance. For those who are unfamiliar with the celebration, the folk dances and songs come from all genres. There is only one Creator of All.... one God.... and we are all a part of Her.... ooops, Him?.... eh, It?.... Friday, 7 PM: The dervishes would have smiled as the healing vortex opened.. .. it did not matter if you didn't know the words or the steps.... all quickly learned when in consensus. It had been six years since I had danced. ... way too long! It always fills me with wonder when I look into the eyes of a stranger and see someone I have known for eternity. Progressing quickly, the circles unified into a universal field opening beyond time and space.... the power of love and grace always takes my breath away leaving me gasping for more. Quietly, I remembered those who had asked to be included in the healing celebration.... knowing that love has this boundless quality that defied the spatial and temporal barriers of the mind. The dove opened its wings and flew from the Wisconsin heartland into the outstretched arms of a healing nation. Whatever the precepts and distractions of the moment, this country must lead along the path of rebirthing the spiritual awakening. Pir Vilayat has been and remains a leader in this endeavor. Sat., 6:30 am: I awoke listening to the Mother's breath.... Pir's meditation pierced dream state enlivening the day. Our weather had been mild, glimpsing at Spring, evoking a chorus of morning chatter amongst the bird tribes - human and feathered. It is hard to approach such a day without expectations. The chattering continued through the morning into the conference room. Pir's entrance went virtually unnoticed until he mounted the dais.... then sound nervously died away. Most of the attendees were not aware of the protocol normally given the teacher. This was soon corrected when he suggested a "vow of silence" for the retreat. Of course, he relented for the lunch break, but it quickly established a meditative work ethic for the weekend. Personally, my first impressions indicated a sub-harmonic not present in my previous visits with Pir. I was not quite prepared for this.... perhaps it was the misunderstanding caused by the "seminar vs. retreat" billing on the promotional materials.... his auric field was dimmed by an unexplained nebulosity, darkness. This continued throughout most of the first day. The teaching remained vibrant and clear; mostly elemental breathwork harmonizing the group bringing forth a consensus of grace. The meditative states were deep and productive as the collective energies were unified. The afternoon's session was preceded by a group meditation which provided a common ground for all.... gone was the uneasiness of the morning. Father Sun smiled and light prevailed.... gone were the morning's distractions. I watched my Brother perform his transformational magic.... chuckling within himself.... on familiar ground once again. Later in the evening while chatting with my companions, I listened to their comments about the morning. They too had felt the disharmonic variations in the thematic chords. Sun., 9 am: Sunrise had blessed us with a light coating of snow.... this phenomena, I am learning, is quite natural for the northern climes.... a hint of spring preceding another gray reminder of winter's loosening hold. As Pir ascended the dais, I noticed something which had not been present the day before.... his aura!.... golden, white, extending several feet into the surrounding environs.... permeating the assembly.... vibrant, filled with aliveness! I have always loved Pir's stories.... oh, it's not the telling per se, but the intertwining of music with the story has always captured one's imagination and elevated the content to inspirational levels. This morning, the 16 year old Joan of Arc appeared center stage.... dashing the English domination of France.... inspiring the masses.... enthroning the French king .... alienating the catholic hierarchy.... suffering the Inquisition.... recanting her beliefs and, humiliated, reaffirming the "voices" from God before being sentenced to be burned at the stake like 9 million of her sisters during this terrible period of repression of the feminine and the Great Mother Earth. Then, for the first time, I listened as Pir spoke of his own sister's persecution under Nazi Germany. He was planning a memorial event for her in late May at Dachau. As he spoke, I noticed the shadows furtively attempting to pierce his field once again.... it did not matter from whence they came.. .. it was an unwelcomed tone in the teacher's symphony. The conference site is situated on a lake with open fields leading to wooded groves along the shore. The moment I exited the conference building at the morning break, my attention was drawn to the tress and the cardinal's insistent beckoning.... "Hear, me, too!".... over and over. With the illusion of Spring, I had not brought my normal winter gear.... so, I journeyed outside to our car to get additional clothing.... or, at least this was the momentary rationale in my mind. My companions congregated there as well, keeping the vow of silence.... but, somehow, reinforcing what lay underneath my consciousness. As we completed our silent reunion, I tugged at my partner's gloves.... I had not brought mine.... they returned to the session. Living in California prepares one for vagaries in weather.... extra shirts, over pants, gortex windbreakers (thanks, Uncle Dan), hiking boots.... soon, I was ready for my impromptu excursion. Walking on newly fallen snow emits a rhapsodic, tinkling symphony which rivaled the morning's feathered caucus assembled in the woods ahead. The Cardinal, having preceded me, established his royal sea on the outer perimeter.... the Canadian delegation honked noisily from the nearby shoreline. I approached gently, not wanting to disturb the assembly's discourse. There were three paths into the wooded area: the first right handily led out onto a small peninsula and promised a traditional ley access to earth and water; the center disappeared into the distance into unknown territory; and, the left path descended gently toward a small pond. The ley potential won... From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 18 10:34:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25441; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 06:12:21 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id FAA21134; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 05:35:14 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id FAA21117; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 05:35:11 -0500 From: informe@best.com Received: from blob.best.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20780; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 05:34:10 -0500 Received: from [204.156.129.34] (informe.vip.best.com [204.156.129.34]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id CAA29166 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 02:34:06 -0800 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 02:34:06 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Sufi Symposium 3/30-3/31 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: As-salaamu alaikum, It is getting near to the IAS symposium in San Francisco on 3/30 and 3/31. If any other Tariqas posters are attending, it might be nice to meet. Salaams, Hamza From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 18 18:21:23 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00636; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:35:17 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA02883; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:51:50 -0500 Received: from adeskgate.autodesk.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA02875; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:51:47 -0500 From: lisa.rapp@autodesk.com Received: from autodesk.autodesk.com by adeskgate.autodesk.com (8.6.12/4.4BSD) with ESMTP id KAA04912; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:31:36 -0800 Received: from unix2cc.autodesk.com by autodesk.autodesk.com (8.6.12/4.4BSD) with ESMTP id KAA15151; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:26:19 -0800 Received: from smtpcc.autodesk.com by unix2cc.autodesk.com (8.6.5/4.4BSD) with SMTP id KAA26067; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:27:45 -0800 Received: from cc:Mail by smtpcc.autodesk.com id AA827173958; Mon, 18 Mar 96 10:21:23 PST Date: Mon, 18 Mar 96 10:21:23 PST Message-Id: <9602188271.AA827173958@smtpcc.autodesk.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufi Symposium 3/30-3/31 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings Hamza and other friends, I will be at the Sufi Symposium Friday night and all (or most of) Saturday and Sunday. I would like to meet other tariqas posters/readers too. Should we set up a day/time/location to meet? The symposium is at the Cathedral Hill Hotel in SF (same as last year); perhaps we could meet either in the main lobby or just outside the main entrance. It would be nice to meet during a lunch break, so as not to miss any of the speakers. peace, lisa. ______________________ lisa.rapp@autodesk.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Sufi Symposium 3/30-3/31 Author: tariqas@europe.std.com at smtpcc Date: 3/18/96 3:06 AM As-salaamu alaikum, It is getting near to the IAS symposium in San Francisco on 3/30 and 3/31. If any other Tariqas posters are attending, it might be nice to meet. Salaams, Hamza From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 19 02:46:12 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02472; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:23:28 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA13287; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:45:11 -0500 Received: from bbs.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA13268; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:45:07 -0500 Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by bbs.cruzio.com id aa19011; 18 Mar 96 18:45 PST X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:46:12 -0800 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: james hallam Subject: New Nimatullahi Sufi page! Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: salaam hope every one is well. here is web page address: http://gate.cruzio.com/~darvish/ as soon as we get domain name ,I will post that. enjoy james hallam From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 19 02:51:58 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05391; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:28:50 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA14438; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:51:04 -0500 Received: from bbs.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA14394; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:50:57 -0500 Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by bbs.cruzio.com id aa20808; 18 Mar 96 18:50 PST X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:51:58 -0800 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: james hallam Subject: One picture speaks a thousand words Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Am wondering if it would be possible to share art work, sufi related ,of course? seems that, at least , some mail programs accomadate unencoded or binhex messages. Would appreciate your views!! One picture speaks a thousand words;) james hallam From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 19 03:51:32 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07064; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:29:54 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA23710; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:58:45 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA23683; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:58:39 -0500 From: MFKimball@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA25223 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:51:32 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:51:32 -0500 Message-Id: <960318225130_449728217@mail06> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufi Symposium 3/30-3/31 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: My husband, Dan, and I will be attending. It would be fun to connect faces with names on the screen. Michelle Kimball From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 19 14:11:10 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24862; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:55:26 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA09161; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:13:17 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA09146; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:13:14 -0500 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25275; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:11:16 -0500 Received: from venus by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:11:12 GMT Received: from altair by venus id ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:11:11 GMT Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:11:10 +0000 (GMT) From: L J Fatoohi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: International Conference on Contemporary Sufi Orders (Announcement) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear brothers, sisters and friends, Sorry for this late notice. Al-Califa publication and distribution house is organizing and sponsoring an international conference on "Contemporary Sufi Orders of the World," to be held in Amman, November 8-10 1996. If you are interested in attending the conference then please note that the closing date is March 24 1996. For those who would like to participate with a talk the deadline is April 15 1996. Further information can be obtained from the following address: Al-Califa Publication and Distribution House P. O. Box 310087 Al-Mahatta Amman 11131 Jordan. FAX: 9626 635 950 Best wishes for all. Louay From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 19 15:51:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00064; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:40:27 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA24778; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:54:48 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA24769; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:54:44 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28869; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:51:58 -0500 Received: from Forrest.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0tz3hH-000Fc3C; Tue, 19 Mar 96 07:51 PST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 07:51 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: 99 Names Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: You may have noticed that this is the first time in 50 days or so where there has not been a poem about one of the Most Beautiful Names. I have decided to slow down a little. To reflect and to start cleaning up some of the poems I already have written which I feel have some small level of merit. I will also be pushing forward. I want to thank you for allowing me your time, as I have shared these with you. What it has meant to me is that I was perhaps in some small way bringing one of the Names to the attention of a group of very evolved people. There is nothing quite like feeling as though somewhow or another your being of service. Its not so much a matter of being a better person, or more spiritual, or anything like that. There is something more closely related to the nitty gritty or the jugalar vien than that. Thank you all for being you. I'll be lurking. Your Brother. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 19 18:21:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08436; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:23:27 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA04452; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:23:26 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06836; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:21:00 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA03784; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:21:00 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:21:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199603191821.NAA03784@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Tue Mar 19 13:20:58 1996 Return-Path: <102064.3531@compuserve.com> Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA03776; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:20:58 -0500 Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05866; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:19:22 -0500 Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA20984; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:19:22 -0500 Date: 19 Mar 96 13:14:58 EST From: AMBER K WILLIAMS <102064.3531@compuserve.com> To: Sufis Subject: email Message-Id: <960319181457_102064.3531_BHC29-3@CompuServe.COM> Subscribe please From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 19 23:15:34 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17539; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:56:40 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA16060; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:15:51 -0500 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA16048; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:15:44 -0500 Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA22053; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:15:34 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:15:34 +1100 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: One picture speaks a thousand words In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, james hallam wrote: > Am wondering if it would be possible to share art work, sufi related ,of course? > seems that, at least , some mail programs accomadate unencoded or binhex > messages. Would appreciate your views!! One picture speaks a thousand > words;) > > james hallam Assalamu alaikum, Personally, I think it is better if pictures are shared on either a web page or posted to alt.sufi or alt.islam.sufism. The reason is because pictures often take up a lot of space, which can be problematic for some of us when they come through email. However, I would love to see some! :) Wassalam, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 20 02:17:11 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20979; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:52:32 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA24453; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:16:16 -0500 Received: from bbs.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA24410; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:16:03 -0500 Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by bbs.cruzio.com id aa02778; 19 Mar 96 18:16 PST X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:17:11 -0800 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, Dien Alfred Rice From: james hallam Subject: One picture speaks a thousand words Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A However, I would love to see some! :) Assalamu alaikum, I have done axes of the nimatullahi dufi order and the enneagram in color; Please tell me wether I can e-mail them directly to you. specify ...uuencoded or binhex. love james From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 21 06:48:40 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29769; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:50:33 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA22933; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:50:33 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28792; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:48:40 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA22824; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:48:40 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:48:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199603210648.BAA22824@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from ["Elmolhoda Morteza" ] Status: RO X-Status: A >From habib@world.std.com Thu Mar 21 01:48:37 1996 Return-Path: Received: from kantti.helsinki.fi by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA22811; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:48:36 -0500 Received: from Elo.helsinki.fi (elo.Helsinki.FI [128.214.79.31]) by kantti.helsinki.fi (8.6.12+Emil1.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id IAA25377 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:48:34 +0200 Received: from ELO/SpoolDir by Elo.helsinki.fi (Mercury 1.21); 21 Mar 96 09:00:16 EET Received: from SpoolDir by ELO (Mercury 1.21); 21 Mar 96 09:00:06 EET From: "Elmolhoda Morteza" Organization: University of Helsinki To: tariqas@europe.std.com Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 08:59:58 EET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: ***Is Tariqa mailing list still working*** Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22 Message-ID: <1D81083616D@Elo.helsinki.fi> I am not receiving any mail from the Tariqas mailing list. What has happened. Is the list still in function? Please someone answer! Morteza morteza.elmolhoda@helsinki.fi From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 21 12:52:04 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08761; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:53:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA16712; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:53:45 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08037; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:52:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA16482; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:52:04 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:52:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199603211252.HAA16482@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from ["Elmolhoda Morteza" ] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Thu Mar 21 07:52:01 1996 Return-Path: Received: from kantti.helsinki.fi by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA16477; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:51:59 -0500 Received: from Elo.helsinki.fi (elo.Helsinki.FI [128.214.79.31]) by kantti.helsinki.fi (8.6.12+Emil1.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA06947 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:17:17 +0200 Received: from ELO/SpoolDir by Elo.helsinki.fi (Mercury 1.21); 20 Mar 96 12:29:00 EET Received: from SpoolDir by ELO (Mercury 1.21); 20 Mar 96 12:28:56 EET From: "Elmolhoda Morteza" Organization: University of Helsinki To: tariqas@europe.std.com Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:28:56 EET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: ****Happay New Year For the Iranians*** Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Message-ID: <1C388427A61@Elo.helsinki.fi> Today is the beginning of the new year in Iran. In Persian language the change of the new year is called "Nouruz". Literally it means "New Day". I would like to use this opportunity and wish all Iranians , specially those in Tariqas, a new year full of happiness and blessings. Ya muqallibal qulubi val absar Ya muhavvilal hawli val ahval Havvil halina ila ahsanilhal. Morteza From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 22 01:04:46 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20164; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 20:59:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA26187; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 20:04:45 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA26171; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 20:04:37 -0500 From: RHMH@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA29783; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 20:04:46 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 20:04:46 -0500 Message-Id: <960321194447_451822507@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, wh@seas.upenn.edu Subject: Fwd: Grey Antelope Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Forwarded message: >Beloveds: > >It has come to my attention that Grey Antelope, the Native American >Sha-man of the Tewas in New Mexico, is desperately ill, so ill in fact >that he can't leave his bed and so cannot sell his pottery which is his >sole means of support. Through the nineties, he travelled all over the >US, sharing his joy in life and his pottery with Sufis everywhere. > >Now one feels that it's payback time. If everyone who can read this >message were to send one dollar ($1) to Jemila Rose, 312 Doris Avenue, >Aptos, CA 95003, I believe Grey Antelope's immediate problem would >be solved, and it would surely not be a strain on anyone's pocketbook. >Jemila Rose is Grey Antelope's liaison with the Sufi community. > >Love and blessings, > >Ahmaddin As-Salik > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 20 00:09:20 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06709; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 02:01:25 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA27113; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:15:59 -0500 Received: from soho.ios.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA26550; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:12:00 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-20.ts-11.nyc.idt.net [169.132.99.164]) by soho.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA12250 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:09:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:09:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199603200009.TAA12250@soho.ios.com> X-Sender: kaleema@198.4.75.47 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: "K.Ahmad" Subject: Sufi Centers in NYC Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, Does anyone have information concerning the location(s) of any Sufi Center(s) in the NY metro area? Thank you in advance. Wassalam, Kaleem From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 19 17:38:13 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20943; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 02:44:50 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA11778; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:47:19 -0500 Received: from adeskgate.autodesk.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA11773; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:47:15 -0500 From: lisa.rapp@autodesk.com Received: from autodesk.autodesk.com by adeskgate.autodesk.com (8.6.12/4.4BSD) with ESMTP id JAA02199; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:49:02 -0800 Received: from unix2cc.autodesk.com by autodesk.autodesk.com (8.6.12/4.4BSD) with ESMTP id JAA24415; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:43:43 -0800 Received: from smtpcc.autodesk.com by unix2cc.autodesk.com (8.6.5/4.4BSD) with SMTP id JAA11113; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:45:14 -0800 Received: from cc:Mail by smtpcc.autodesk.com id AA827257829; Tue, 19 Mar 96 09:38:13 PST Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 09:38:13 PST Message-Id: <9602198272.AA827257829@smtpcc.autodesk.com> To: informe@best.com, Lilyan Ila , tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: Hafizullah@aol.com, lisa.rapp@autodesk.com, MFKimball@aol.com, mateens@sybase.com, quist@batnet.com Subject: Re[2]: Sufi Symposium 3/30-3/31 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings, Saturday would be fine with me. Should we set up a time and place, like 12:30 (should be around lunch time) just outside the main entrance? (There's a big area there.) Again, I'm flexible, so if this doesn't work for anyone, I'm open to change. I'm adding the tariqas address to this email. peace, lisa. ______________________ lisa.rapp@autodesk.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Sufi Symposium 3/30-3/31 Author: Lilyan Ila at smtpcc Date: 3/19/96 8:20 AM wa aleikum asalaam Could we then meet Saturday? I will probably not be there in the evening and am not planning to attend Sunday. On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 informe@best.com wrote: > As-salaamu alaikum, > > I have no idea of what the program is, but I will probably be there > Saturday afternoon, the early evening, and some of Sunday afternoon. > > Salaams, > > Hamza > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 20 16:59:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07726; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 06:45:37 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA15966; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:13:32 -0500 Received: from adeskgate.autodesk.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA15923; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:12:55 -0500 From: lisa.rapp@autodesk.com Received: from autodesk.autodesk.com by adeskgate.autodesk.com (8.6.12/4.4BSD) with ESMTP id MAA16336; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:13:48 -0800 Received: from unix2cc.autodesk.com by autodesk.autodesk.com (8.6.12/4.4BSD) with ESMTP id MAA12428; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:08:21 -0800 Received: from smtpcc.autodesk.com by unix2cc.autodesk.com (8.6.5/4.4BSD) with SMTP id MAA26556; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:09:56 -0800 Received: from cc:Mail by smtpcc.autodesk.com id AA827348951; Wed, 20 Mar 96 08:59:06 PST Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 08:59:06 PST Message-Id: <9602208273.AA827348951@smtpcc.autodesk.com> To: informe@best.com, Lilyan Ila , tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: lisa.rapp@autodesk.com, Hafizullah@aol.com, MFKimball@aol.com, mateens@sybase.com, quist@batnet.com Subject: Re[4]: Sufi Symposium 3/30-3/31 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings, Yes, the main lobby would probably be better. I was thinking we could meet just outside the front door, since the lobby usually has alot of people roaming around, but insh'allah we can find each other in the lobby. So: 12:30 Saturday in the main lobby (the symposium is just upstairs in the mezzanine area). Hope to see you all there! peace, lisa. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re[2]: Sufi Symposium 3/30-3/31 Author: Lilyan Ila at smtpcc Date: 3/19/96 10:10 PM salaams 12:30 Saturday is good - the main entrance meaning the hotel lobby? On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 informe@best.com wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > Saturday would be fine with me. Should we set up a time and place, > > like 12:30 (should be around lunch time) just outside the main > > entrance? (There's a big area there.) Again, I'm flexible, so if > > this doesn't work for anyone, I'm open to change. I'm adding the > > tariqas address to this email. > > Salaams, > > Saturday @ 12:30, insh'allah. > > Hamza > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 22 16:40:49 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09176; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:45:08 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04726; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:45:07 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05844; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:40:50 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04057; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:40:49 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:40:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199603221640.LAA04057@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore)] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Fri Mar 22 11:40:46 1996 Return-Path: Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04039; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:40:41 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17940; Fri, 22 Mar 96 08:39:22 PST Received: from kirin by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 22 Mar 96 8:39:21 PST Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA03316; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:39:24 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:39:24 -0800 From: mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore) Message-Id: <199603221639.IAA03316@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: discussion group announcement Cc: michaeljm8@aol.com, mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sufi Perspective In a well known story by Mevlana Rumi there are many people trying to understand what an elephant looks like without any light to see by. They used their hands to feel different parts of the elephant in order to "see" it. Each one felt a different part and claimed the elephant was shaped like that one part. One said it was like a hose, others said a fan, a pillar, a throne, etc., depending on what part they had felt. Then Rumi commented that if there had been a candle in each one's hand, the difference would have gone out of their words. Those interested in putting the parts of the whold together in an attempt to "see" the unity we hear so much about from representatives of the world's religions are welcome to gather at: 427 California Ave. Palo Alto, CA 94306 Phone: (415) 329-9229 Time: Saturdays 3:00 - 5:00 P.M. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 22 16:52:58 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16893; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:54:39 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA06068; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:54:38 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15558; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:52:58 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA05870; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:52:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:52:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199603221652.LAA05870@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Rivercats@aol.com] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Fri Mar 22 11:52:55 1996 Return-Path: Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA05865; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:52:55 -0500 From: Rivercats@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA03301 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:53:02 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:53:02 -0500 Message-ID: <960322114728_452320933@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: [phanes@cris.com: Comet viewing guide (resend)] Yunus.... Thank you so much for all the information...I printed off the comet schedule and gave it to a friend at the Emissaries. I SAW THE COMET!!!!!! 2 nights ago when it was clear out here. It looked like a big fuzzy splotch of light... but I SAW IT! Now, if you really are interested in something exciting... get into www.artbell.com the web page, and check out Richard Hoagland's column. By now you know about the NASA moon photos....as the press conference was held yesterday. PROOF that the moon is not made of green cheese... that ought to rattle some people. More anon. El From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 23 09:55:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26586; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 05:16:54 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id EAA29613; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 04:58:35 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id EAA29601; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 04:58:32 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24319; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 04:55:42 -0500 Received: from Saturna.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u0Q2g-000G7tC; Sat, 23 Mar 96 01:55 PST Message-Id: Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 01:55 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: abd al Majid Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: abd al Majid My Beloved I blush at the passion I feel and as vulnerable as a child as I swoon to the sound I hear when listening to You intoned By Your names. My eyes are blinded with new sight with which to see Your art. I smell an assortment and a bouquet richer than all the spices and perfumes scattered along the history of the silk road itself! Truly, the kingdom of heaven if opened to a wretch like myself, through the majesty of Your names, is a beckoning portal for my sisters and my brothers, more luxuriant by far then Bach's good fugue, then the stretching fingers and the nostalgia of Michael Angelo's Sistine Chapel, and more powerful than Radon's Melchisadec or Dante's Divine Comedy or all of Shakespeare's sonnets. May each of my good companions enter into paradise with You, as they sink within their own sacred hearts carried upon their treasured breath, discovering the multii colored universes, and octaves yet to be concieved bringing them one step closer to the richness within their hearts, and toward the treasure that they hold from You in store, which only silence will reveal as they un-learn and release the plight of misery which we were taught of as reality. Let Your generosity be ours as we greet each other, and let each other in, as we discover opening up the gates, that we have the keys, and there is a place for cherished friends within the kingdom of our souls. Teach us to be silent, to dare, and to act; our hearts already shattered, let us be like pelicans tearing open our breasts prepared to die before we die while feeding the children of this world lifted us by the strong wings of independence and indifference give us the gift of Your double edged sword, responsibility and freedom, and give us the capacity of chivalery, to be true to You as we are true to ourselves as we are true to one another. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 23 10:55:58 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04140; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 06:09:47 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id FAA03336; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 05:55:52 -0500 Received: from mail.med.upenn.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id FAA03331; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 05:55:49 -0500 Received: (from hmhsb@localhost) by mail.med.upenn.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA27675 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 05:55:58 -0500 From: Hesham Bazaraa Message-Id: <199603231055.FAA27675@mail.med.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Sufi Centers in NYC To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 05:55:58 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199603200009.TAA12250@soho.ios.com> from "K.Ahmad" at Mar 19, 96 07:09:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 383 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Wa Alykum AsSalam, You may like to go to Naqshabandi Dhikr friday nights. Try calling 212 563-7302 [ask Sister Batool]. I have enjoyed this dhikr many times when I was living in NY. Salaams, Hesham. > > Assalamu alaikum, > Does anyone have information concerning the location(s) of any Sufi > Center(s) in the NY metro area? > Thank you in advance. > Wassalam, > Kaleem > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 23 14:51:39 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13857; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:19:38 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA18346; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:53:31 -0500 Received: from diamond.sierra.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA18337; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:53:28 -0500 Received: from frank (slt-d26.sierra.net) by diamond.sierra.net with SMTP id AA21440 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 23 Mar 1996 06:53:16 -0800 Message-Id: <31540FFB.23FE@sierra.net> Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 06:51:39 -0800 From: Frank Gaude Organization: HighSierra Online (HSO) X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: abd al Majid References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello, Jabriel! and all sentient beings! > abd al Majid > to die before we die while feeding > the children of this world > lifted us by the strong wings of independence and indifference > give us the gift of Your double edged sword, > responsibility and freedom, and give us the capacity > of chivalery, to be true to You as we are true to ourselves > as we are true to one another. Gosh, you have put it all into one piece under Ya Majid, O All Glorious! God truly gets to know Self through each of us... we are the pressure points between heaven and hell... Translated by Omar Ali-Shah, set to verse by Robert Graves Copyright 1967 by Robert Graves and Omar Ali-Shah: 27 Yet those who proved most perfect of our kind (,) Mounted the soaring Burak of their thoughts. Study your essence: like the Firmament, Your head will turn and turn, vertiginously. 28 In childhood once we crouched before our teacher, (30,27) Growing content, in time, with what he taught; How does the story end? What happened to us? We came like water and like wind were gone. 29 When falcon-like I darted from my world (,) Of mystery, upward and upward flying, No sage stood there to greet me with the truth; So back I dived by the same narrow door. 30 Man's brain has never solved the eternal Why (,26) Nor foraged past the frontier set for thought. All intellect be sure, proves nugatory, However hard we either teach or learn. 106 Since no voice here can promise you tomorrow, (109,74) Content yourself, my mortal Moon, with bowls Emptied by moonlight--one fine night the Moon May search the world for us, but find us gone! 107 Sweet friends, in joy assembled here together, (110,75) Never forget us, once your sweetest friends. Before you greet the jug, Khayaam adjures you: When his turn comes, turn down his empty bowl. 110 Though pearls in praise of God I never strung, (,) Though dust of sin lies clotted on my brow, Yet will I not despair of mercy. When Did Omar argue that the One was Two? 111 The palace with huge walls soaring to Heaven, (20,) Where prostrate Kings did reverence at the gate-- A ring-dove perches on its battlements; 'Where, where?' it coos, 'where, where?' Subhan Allah, Alhamdu'lillah, Allah ho Akbar. tanzen of tahoe From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 23 18:09:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23636; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:32:17 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA03831; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:10:27 -0500 Received: from homer23.u.washington.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA03808; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:10:22 -0500 Received: from localhost by homer23.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.03/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA118439; Sat, 23 Mar 96 10:09:14 -0800 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:09:14 -0800 (PST) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: abd al Majid In-Reply-To: <31540FFB.23FE@sierra.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum And who is the author, please? Lily > > Translated by Omar Ali-Shah, set to verse by Robert Graves > Copyright 1967 by Robert Graves and Omar Ali-Shah: > > 27 Yet those who proved most perfect of our kind (,) > Mounted the soaring Burak of their thoughts. > Study your essence: like the Firmament, From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 23 18:47:03 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10345; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:14:54 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA06878; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:51:44 -0500 Received: from diamond.sierra.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA06869; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:51:40 -0500 Received: from sunshine (slt-d31.sierra.net) by diamond.sierra.net with SMTP id AA01559 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:47:44 -0800 Message-Id: <31544727.2144@sierra.net> Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:47:03 -0800 From: Frank Gaude Organization: HighSierra Online (HSO) X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: abd al Majid References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Lilyan Ila wrote: > > asalaam-u-aleikum > > And who is the author, please? > > Translated by Omar Ali-Shah, set to verse by Robert Graves > > Copyright 1967 by Robert Graves and Omar Ali-Shah: > > > > 27 Yet those who proved most perfect of our kind (,) > > Mounted the soaring Burak of their thoughts. > > Study your essence: like the Firmament, Hello, dear Lilyan! Long time no see! Gosh, so sorry I forgot the author: Omar Khayaam, from his Rubaiyyat. tanzen of tahoe From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 23 22:10:11 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27711; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 17:43:25 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA24383; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 17:16:18 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA24378; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 17:16:16 -0500 Received: from panther.ferrum.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16060; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 17:12:29 -0500 Received: (from nfs4362@localhost) by panther.ferrum.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA05723; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 17:10:11 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 17:10:11 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Bier To: Dace Gordon Pruitt , Tariqas , Gnosis , SPIRAMED@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU Subject: Re: A story or two In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: This is an exchag tht might be of interest to tariqas and gnosis long - scroll to the 3 carat >>> message at the bottom beginning jim On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, Dace Gordon Pruitt wrote: > Jim: > Soryy that I took so long in answering your note. Could you tell me > a little about the sufi? I have been somewhat of a theological nomad > over the past few years. I have looked and have found nothing that fits > with the experiences that I have had. Dace, where are you. I have a listing from the Dances of universl peace, many of whose participants are sufi initiates. There may be some near you. sufi is a mystical religion, transmitted from teacher murshid to student. I myself am not yet an initiate. It comes from the desert tribes of the middle east and has similar roots to judaism and islam, but is much less doctrinaire and much more experiential of divinity. I may have info on subscribing to tariqas, an open sufi newsletter for those who are not necessarily moslem and will look and try to send it to you. A good book about the earlier times is DESERT WISDOM by Neil Douglas-Klotz sp? His books are worthwhile, as are those of matthew fox > The sect that I most I.D. with is now extinct. Mary Jane was the last > of her clan, tribe, and nation. She taught me what she could before her > death and then said that I would have to rely on the memories. Her > people were closely associated with the Navaho, but were much older. The > Navaho have been a nation for only 500 years. Young in the respects of > the hopi, 1200 years, and the Utah, 1400 years, and the Maya, 4700 years. > She called herself Anashante', (closest english spelling). She claimed > ancestry back for almost 10,000 years. She had said that the Anasazi, > the ancient ones, were an off spring of her tribe. In the 1500's a > plague of chicken pox hit her people and exterminated close to 4000 > people. In payment for this they contacted the hopi and had them attck > the Spanish in the Dolores, Colorado river valley. These were scouts and > not part of the nation. The hopi have never lived in that area to spite > what history records. They killed the priest, Fr. Escalante. This is > how I think Coranado lost his priest. > In the 1800's The big buffalo clan of the Navaho stole an American > Generals horse. This caused an invasion into the nation that bled into > other areas. The Anashante were mistaken for Navaho and forced onto the > trail of tears. Almost 1500 miles on foot to Fort Sumner, TX. This > killed 85% of the tribe. In the 1900's a series of plagues, including > Small Pox. hit and either killed or steralised the remaining people. In > 1972 John She'ne'tah died leaving only Mary Jane. > In 1978 I had my experience and Mary Jane saw the mountain lion that > fell asleap in my lap. She talked to me and realized that I had the > abbility to remember. She then took it upon herself to make sure that I > had enough knowledge to keep the memory alive. To help, I went through > the assention in the Navaho nation. I saw the spirits of the eagle, AND > golden grisley. I was then taken to the capitol of Navaha'a'na, The > Navaho nation and presented to a woman. She was she who remembers for > the Navaho. She knew what the appearance of two animals ment but she > would not say. She just said that I was Je^hadi'. When I got back home > I was greated by mary Jane by the same title. > When I went to the Catholic church with this and the other experiences, > I was excommunicated, at the age of eight. Thus the nomad syndrome. It's quite an honor and annointing to have been excommunicated from the RC church at age 8. It took me until age 40 to write a letter to my bishop and tell him i could no longer associate myself with a church of men ruled from Rome. > Well just thought that you would like a little history. Any thing > that you could possibly add would be of great help. By the way, many of > the memories that I have and were tought were from the "anointation" or > the first appearance of man on this plane, these are fogy even for the > best of the rememberers, and the great migration, or the crossing of the > land bridge. > By the way, an error in the christian and jewish doctrine, possibly > islam as well. > For only those of the tribes of the holy Isreal shall be able to enter > the kingdom of heaven. One houndred thousand from each of the seven > tribes. > The tribes were hunted by Judea and Michah and scattered into the > wilderness to the south, africa, and east, and north. If all man died in > the age of the great flood than all man is from the nation of Isreal, and > thus the wars of history, and religion are nothing more than the > continuatlion of the clan wars that caused the fall of the house of man. > We were given a chance a paradise, but our arrogance and need for > dominion caused us to destroy this and curse ourselves to thousands of > years of misery. It is mans fault and mans responsibility to remidy > things befor the course is set in stone. In accordance to the old ways > of the native Americans. The sighns of a forced unifacation are here and > now. We have the chance to change ourselves, or we can be changed. The > latter is not a good change. This is the earth rebelling agains man in > such a way that man will never forget just how temporary we are. > Peace love and light Dace > Baraka means blessing and shalom. Our only response to the baraka of god's blesing is an all-consuming and empowering gratitude. There is a good film BARAKA - no dialog, just images tied together with a wonderful score. > P.S. If you thing this should be shared, go ahead and bounce it to the > list. > On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Jim Bier wrote: > > > Dace, i enjoy reading you posts. I like this story. It agrees with my > > own perception and the sufi concept of baraka as i understand it. We > > must understand we live in paradise, and that it is only 'our' action or > > inaction that keeps this paradise from being realized. > > > > jim > > > A story of beginings: Translation of Mary Jane A'ah,^'netch''ta (Anderson) > > > Transcribed by Dace Pruitt in 1978. > > > > > > The narator claims this is from the memories of the ancestors who lived > > > before the time of the great frease: (approx. 12,000-14,000 B.C.E.) > > > > > > There are many worlds for man to exist on. The first was that of > > > reality, where man could say nothing more than I am. > > > > > > The power of thought and reason came with the second. > > > > > > Substance came with the third. > > > > > > But in the third world of creation there was little food to eat. This > > > was because man was unable to grasp the idea of environment and the > > > belonging to the great circle of life. > > > > > > And so god let man suffer in his own ignorance. > > > > > > Then man came to understand the nature of creation and that god alowed > > > more for the children of the first. > > > > > > Man became restless. > > > > > > God, noticing this, sent upon the ancients ministers, or knights, from > > > the highest plane. Others with the people he touched. > > > > > > Those that he touched would drive man to grow, and the knights would lead > > > them into the light. For man would not go aalone, they had never knone > > > anything other than darkness. > > > > > > The drive began and man walked into the fourth world. > > > > > > Food, smells, freedom, and sight. > > > > > > These are the gifts of god. > > > > > > But, alas, with gifts comes responsibility. For god created the Earth > > > for the purpose of god, not for man. > > > > > > Man has been given this place as a reward for his growing. Man must > > > never forget that just because he is in paridise, he is not guaronteed it > > > life. > > > > > > Man must live with the gifts and ptotect it's fruits. > > > > > > Man is just a guest on gods creation. > > > > > > Man is just a guest. > > > > > > > > > I had thought of writing another story, but It will save for later. > > > > > > Through this memory the Navaho believe that the Earth is the garder of > > > paridise, and that if it is hell on Earth, it is no ones fault, but man > > > himself. > > > > > > By the way, for the Christians out there. Does the glimmering city of > > > god, the New Jerourselem, built of the shattered rubble of the old city, > > > not fit a description of the MODERN skyscrapers in the new city? > > > > > > Just a thought. > > > > > > Peace, light, gifts, and love. > > > Remember these and set yourself free! > > > > > > Dace Pruitt dace@tenet.edu > > > > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 24 17:12:31 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11313; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:16:08 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA05862; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:16:07 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10107; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:12:31 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA05560; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:12:31 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:12:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199603241712.MAA05560@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [ZIAulHUQ@aol.com] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Sun Mar 24 12:12:28 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA05546; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:12:28 -0500 From: ZIAulHUQ@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09688; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:11:01 -0500 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA09162 for Tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:11:00 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:11:00 -0500 Message-Id: <960324121059_453597890@mail06> To: Tariqas@world.std.com Subject: SHEIKH SERIF AL RIFAI IN NYC-MAY HU, Shiekh Serif of the Rifai-Marufi Order of Istambul will be in NYC in the middle part of May and will conduct one or two Zikrs to which all are welcome. Also if anyone has a space which they can offer for the Zikrs, or can suggest a space that would be most appreciated. Now residing in North Carolina Shiekh Serif is the head of the Rifai-Marufi Order of America, and can be reached at: M. SERIF CATALKAYA RIFAI MARUFI ORDER OF AMERICA P.O. Box 296 CARRBORO, NC 27510 919-933-0772 For more information on the Zikrs in NYC call 212-265-4345 or Email at this address. HU From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 24 08:03:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19171; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 14:18:28 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA13871; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:45:31 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA13861; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:45:27 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09209; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:44:27 -0500 Received: from Wallace.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u0kmK-000Fh8C; Sun, 24 Mar 96 00:03 PST Message-Id: Date: Sun, 24 Mar 96 00:03 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: ash Sha Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: You are as close as rushing blood racing through these veins, Your omniscience Lord permeates like a rose scented mystery leaving refreshed an entire creation conscious of itself and delivering that self so that the image of Your presence is by intent made present to bear witness; that there is no God but You and Mohammed is Your Prophet Breathing us the spirit of Your sweet breath allows from time to time to taste a hint, a drop of Your honey mead, gnosis, and at an appointed hour; the second is struck and imploded by the shock of looking upon something like Your Face. Omnipotent in all ways You are the fulfillment, the effulgence of a grand epiphany which if viewed fully would push the mind to madness. This is why a disciple needs to cling to the hem of the Shayke seeking, as (s)he bears witness, refuge, delivered from belief, empty as a vessel and fluid as a pool, thirsty, dry and still, drinking in the glance, a shot delivered to the heart, surrendered, so there is balance, and sanity can bear the weight of a secret as dangerous as plutonium, and as brutal and terrifying to the ego as the ferocious light of Truth. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 24 21:18:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16495; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:10:30 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA09457; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:28:47 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA09445; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:28:44 -0500 From: ennea@net-gate.com Received: from ns1.net-gate.com (inetgw-cwi.cwi.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02437; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:27:50 -0500 Received: from modem14.net-gate.com (modem14.net-gate.com [205.136.25.225]) by ns1.net-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA15844 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:18:06 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:18:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199603242118.QAA15844@ns1.net-gate.com> X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A In the past year, I have been reading most books by Idries Shah and what seems to be a group of his co-writers. I am very intrigued by his works. In my mind, he ties all of Sufism together in a way that never was apparent to me before, but is the most logical and simplistic of ways. Of all that I have read so far, his teachings strike me as the most real and true. Though many veils have been lifted by his teachings, some new confusion has formed in my mind and I write to ask for others 'opinions.' After reading his books, I have come to feel that all forms of Sufism I have come in physical contact with are degenerative forms of Sufism. It is not because they have not met the criteria he has given but because I now see things that I did not see before that lead me to feel they are artificial. I have met 'Sufis' that ask me to repeat things in languages I do not understand, perform dances that were designed for men hundreds of years ago, etc, or they sit on a cushion above everyone else and call themselves by glorious titles, etc. I feel that they are false teachers but then I wonder if possibly they are only testing me. I am left in a very confused state and I wonder how I will ever find something 'real.' Idries Shah seems to 'drop clues' that would lead a reader to feel that Idries Shah is one of the few real teachers or that he represents the few real teachers. In books by other authors (though by the same publisher), the author speaks of how Idries Shah is the real representative of Sufism in the West, and how he is the chosen one to plant the seed in the West. He is often glorified by these other writers in books that he himself has compiled. He also has perfectly left clues in his books that would draw a person with the background in the 'Fourth-Way' (the teachings of Gurdjieff, in which I started my search) to Sufism and to abandon the 4th-Way. Though he speaks very strongly against conditioning, this seems to me to be a form of conditioning and because of it, I am a little untrusting of him. Can anyone offer any insight on these thoughts? What is your experience with false teachers in Sufism and how is one to know if a teacher is genuine? How does one go about finding a contact in Sufism? Does anyone know what Idries Shah is thought of among Sufis? Is he considered the great teacher that he seems to lead us to believe? I would appreciate any answers or comments to the questions and ideas I have raised, and also any other information about Idries Shah that could be offered. Thank you all for your time. Sincerely, Mark Fenkner From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 24 22:36:22 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18472; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:27:32 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA16860; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:37:56 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA16851; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:37:54 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25499; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:34:38 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA03183 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:34:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.103]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:42:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960324223622.00a843c0@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:36:22 -0500 To: Jim Bier , Dace Gordon Pruitt , Tariqas , Gnosis , SPIRAMED@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU From: James McCaig Subject: Re: A story or two Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:10 PM 3/23/96 -0500, Jim Bier wrote: > >This is an exchag tht might be of interest to tariqas and gnosis >long - scroll to the 3 carat >>> message at the bottom beginning >jim > > >From Hidayat Inayat Khan, leader of the International Sufi Movement: SUFISM The word Sufi, according to Greek and Arabic etymologies, means 'wisdom' for the one, and 'purity' for the other. However both concepts clearly suggest one and the same Truth. Wisdom is only there when the mind is purified of preconceived ideas, the burdens of dogma and an unrestful conscience. As to the origins of Sufism, one could say that it is also just as ancient as the concepts of wisdom and purity, which have always been the inspiration of devotional worship all down the ages. In reality, Sufism is the essence of all religious ideals and has even been appropriated during different periods of history by large cultural and religious streams, without ever losing its own universal identity. For a Sufi, the diversity of names and forms of the world's religious tendencies are like veils covering the phenomena of the =91Spirit of= Guidance=92 manifested at all levels of evolution. This Inner Guidance is constantly present in the beautiful book of nature's mysteries, which reveals a never-ending Message of Love, providing one's understanding of the relationship between matter and spirit is in harmony with one's feeling= heart. This explains why one of the great ideals of the Sufi is the awakening of the heart qualities, resulting in a broader outlook. One's view then reaches far beyond concepts of faith and belief and allows one to offer tolerance to the tragic misunderstandings which divide the earnest followers of various religions and philosophical traditions. When offering, as brothers and sisters, to partake in carrying the burden of misunderstandings of others, the Sufi avoids any display of speculative theories, using only the language of the heart to communicate sympathy and dedication in support of the various interpretations of the one ideal of worship. The aim of the Sufi is to release one's captive soul from the boundaries of the 'I' and 'my' concepts, by merging into the ecstasy of a spiritual ideal. The soul's freedom could be just as peaceful as that Ideal, but the Sufi is well aware that as long as there is the limitation of duality, as shown in the concepts of 'I' and 'my', the soul cannot really be free. This paradox is overcome through the realization that the concepts of 'I' and 'my' are only illusions. What we think of as 'I' is just our own perception of an individual entity functioning as part of an entire network. In the same way, a drop of water is an entity only as long as it is seen as a drop. But as soon as that drop is poured back into the ocean it is then all ocean-water. Therefore, for the Sufi, the ideal which releases the soul from its boundaries is, in fact, the soul's own image, the soul itself, which knows not 'I' or 'my'. =20 Among the numberless purposes in our lives=97which never-the-less could not= be accomplished in a whole lifetime=97one might take for granted that the essential ideals which secure a balanced condition between body, mind, heart and soul, are those related to the concept of life itself, such as, for instance, the desire to live fully, the urge for knowledge, the want for power, the longing for happiness and the need for peace. To the question whether or not a material ideal could lead to an inner purpose, one might say that, seen from the point of view of the 'Divine Purpose', even a material ideal could very well be the outcome of a spiritual one. Therefore, every effort towards the fulfillment of one's life's purpose, whether the effort be material or spiritual, whether made consciously or unconsciously, brings one nearer, step by step, to the ultimate goal. Furthermore, this process can be seen as a humble contribution to the fulfillment of the 'Divine Purpose', since the entire creation is in a constant state of formation, all according to a central= theme.=20 The purpose of life is not fulfilled only in rising to greatest heights, but also by diving deep into the deepest depths, whereby the self is lost, but finds itself again as a result of the widening of its sphere of consciousness. It is just like the seed which finds the fulfillment of its purpose when rising as a plant and spreading out in full bloom in the rays of the sun, after having been lowered deep beneath the ground. At the level of mystical understanding, according to Sufi esoteric teaching, this could be explained as the process of tuning the ego to a higher pitch. One values most that which one has made the greatest efforts to obtain, although, paradoxically, the most valuable achievements are sometimes obtained with the least effort. Unfortunately, one does not always realize the real value of such achievements, unless one has learned the hard way to appreciate all that is bestowed upon one by the Grace of God. There is no experience in life which is worthless. There is not one moment which is really wasted, providing one is wise enough to assemble the bits and pieces of past memories and learn from experience. The self, 'The Conscience', invariably rejoices or suffers unrest from positive or negative thoughts; or, when losing hold of itself, becomes radiant=97being able,= then, to focus all its creative energy on the reality of the Divine Presence. However, the self is only the channel through which the soul is ultimately the 'spectator' of all happenings reflected as impressions. And like a mirror, the reflections perceived do not leave any traces on its pure= surface. Another subject found in Sufi teaching is the alchemy of happiness, which, as we know from fairy tales, is the use of a magic formula to turn base metal into gold. This mystical legend symbolizes so beautifully the basic principle of the Inner School of the Sufis, where deep consideration is offered to the importance of transforming one's gross ego into a humble attitude of respect=97 awakening one's heart to the privilege in being the 'Temple of God'. radiating God's love onto all who come one's way. This inner consciousness can only be developed along a very thorny path called the 'Art of Personality'. This requires constant efforts to forge the character into a living example of love, harmony and beauty, so that one may be a bringer of happiness. Happiness is the birthright of all beings, although one may not always be conscious of the laws of happiness. These laws teach one that happiness is only there when one becomes an inspiration of happiness for others. But how might this be accomplished? Through trying to appreciate what is good in another and overlooking that which disturbs one when others are not in accord with one's own thinking. By trying to see the point of view of others, with tolerance for their convictions, even though they are contrary to one's own. By trying to avoid judging the feelings of others, especially when involved with those whom one has once loved. By trying to overlook one's own failures as well as those of others, because even in a fall there is a hidden stepping-stone on which to rise above feelings of being either lower or higher than others in God's presence. By trying to attune oneself to the rhythm of all those whom one meets, and in whose company there might be a hidden guidance, as there always is in everything that happens in one's life, providing one has lost oneself in the ecstasy of Divine Presence. Hidayat Inayat khan Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 24 22:54:29 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23765; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:40:23 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA18345; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:53:48 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA18332; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:53:44 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02153; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:52:44 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA03275 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:53:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.103]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:00:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960324225429.0031147c@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:54:29 -0500 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Idries Shah was an early pupil of Hazrat Inayat Khan, I believe. Khan is usually credited with being the first to bring the Sufi Message to the West. Perceptive readers of Ralph Waldo Emerson or Thoreau might dispute this. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 24 23:36:11 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02406; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 19:04:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA22415; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:33:03 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA22389; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:32:59 -0500 From: ennea@net-gate.com Received: from ns1.net-gate.com (inetgw-cwi.cwi.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19732; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:30:40 -0500 Received: from modem15.net-gate.com (modem15.net-gate.com [205.136.25.223]) by ns1.net-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA27919 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:36:11 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:36:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199603242336.SAA27919@ns1.net-gate.com> X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A >Dear Mark Fentner > >I believe that a all human teachers are false in some way and that the >message can still come through them or us as we become teachers. I also >believe that students need to appreciate the humaness of teachers and >take responsibility in the teacher-student relationship--surrender YES- >dependence-NO. Spirituality is an adult activity. A teacher is not a >parent who a little one sees as perfection and then becomes disappointed >when the teacher can not live up to this perfection. In fact I think >often our own insecurities demand more and more impossible perfection of >a teacher. I ask myself-am I learning and growing spiritually and is >the emotional relationship good enough. A spiritual community can be >like a rough ocean when one needs to swim vigorously--however one gains >a lot more strenght and adventure then sitting in a hot tub in one's >own backyard. I expect a few unpleasant and "non perfect" moments with >the group and with the teacher and do what I can to contribute to an >atmosphere where I can hear the message. > >Amber/Berkeley > > > I feel that when we are to accept a person as a teacher, we need to give our entire trust to that teacher. If such a thing as an objective man exists, and if he is to use objective means to bring us closer to reality, we need to have total faith in his actions which might appear subjective to us. Though everyone is only a human, we need to be able to trust that thier human qualities will not be damaging to our development. I have met many teachers that have good intentions and that offer some spiritual growth but in the long wrong what they offer is incomplete and damaging to development. If I want to just make myself a little bit better than I am now, this might be fine but when I seek to attain as much as I possibly can in this lifetime, to come as close to the truth as possible, this just will not do. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 24 23:59:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07624; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 19:21:52 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA25334; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:59:53 -0500 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA25319; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:59:47 -0500 Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA00595; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:59:26 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:59:25 +1100 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: A story or two In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Jim, Greetings of Peace! I realize that what you wrote is to James, but I hope it is okay if I stick my head in for a second. :) On Sun, 24 Mar 1996, Jim Bier wrote: [...] > Since the seeming authorative nature between murshid and disciple > has been a major reason for my not going further with sufism, [...] I just want to comment on this.... This is also why I did not attend any Sufi group for a long time after my interest in Sufism had started. I was afraid that I might be forced to make some kind of committment that I didn't want to make. However, this is not the way it is at all! You can attend a Sufi group, and see what you think of it, and even check out two or three (which I personally think is a good idea). Different tariqas may be more appropriate for different people, this is one of the reasons for the differences between the authentic tariqas, not that one is better than another, but one might be better specifically for _you_ than another might be, while it might be different for someone else. However, if you do join a good tariqa, you will notice a huge world of difference in experience compared to what you had experienced before. This is because many things just cannot be taught from books, but must be taught directly, from person to person. Anyhow, this has been my experience. :) However, be careful of false Shaykhs, as Sufis of all times have warned. (This is another reason why it is better to check out more than one tariqa.) Peace, and may God guide you on your search, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 00:24:35 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29617; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 20:19:30 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA28379; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 19:24:37 -0500 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA28374; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 19:24:33 -0500 Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA05408; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:24:35 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:24:35 +1100 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah In-Reply-To: <199603242118.QAA15844@ns1.net-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum (Peace be with you), On Sun, 24 Mar 1996 ennea@net-gate.com wrote: > In the past year, I have been reading most books by Idries Shah and what seems > to be a group of his co-writers. I am very intrigued by his works. In my mind, > he ties all of Sufism together in a way that never was apparent to me > before, but > is the most logical and simplistic of ways. Of all that I have read so far, > his > teachings strike me as the most real and true. Though many veils have been > lifted > by his teachings, some new confusion has formed in my mind and I write to > ask for > others 'opinions.' > > After reading his books, I have come to feel that all forms of Sufism I have > come > in physical contact with are degenerative forms of Sufism. It is not > because they > have not met the criteria he has given but because I now see things that I > did not > see before that lead me to feel they are artificial. I have met 'Sufis' > that ask > me to repeat things in languages I do not understand, perform dances that were > designed for men hundreds of years ago, etc, or they sit on a cushion above > everyone > else and call themselves by glorious titles, etc. I feel that they are > false teachers > but then I wonder if possibly they are only testing me. I am left in a very > confused > state and I wonder how I will ever find something 'real.' Just my two cents... I think it is hard to tell who is true and who is false when you are beginning. (I certainly make no claim to be able to tell this myself!) Reading the stories of Sufis in history, I have noticed that they have used all manners of teaching styles, some teaching styles make them widely accepted, some styles make them widely disliked by the public, but all these styles may be authentic. It depends on who the intended recipient is, what his or her current state is, that sort of thing. Maybe those particular practices you have seen are not appropriate for you, but that doesn't mean that they're not appropriate for others. > Idries Shah seems to 'drop clues' that would lead a reader to feel that > Idries Shah > is one of the few real teachers or that he represents the few real teachers. > In books > by other authors (though by the same publisher), the author speaks of how > Idries Shah > is the real representative of Sufism in the West, and how he is the chosen > one to > plant the seed in the West. He is often glorified by these other writers in > books that he himself has compiled. He also has perfectly left clues in his > books that would draw a person with the background in the 'Fourth-Way' (the > teachings of Gurdjieff, in which I started my search) to Sufism and to > abandon the 4th-Way. Though > he speaks very strongly against conditioning, this seems to me to be a form > of conditioning and because of it, I am a little untrusting of him. I do not know much about Idries Shah, except to say that much of the materials in his books are compiled and translated from traditional Sufi teaching sources, used by many schools and Shaykhs. They are certainly not used exclusively by Shah, but he has performed a good service in translating and presenting them in English. However, you can only go a short way with books. I would doubt that Shah would claim to be the only "chosen one" to plant Sufism in the West. Chosen by who? The Sufi tariqas as a whole don't have a centralized authority.... Many tariqas have several branches, and those branches may even have branches, and so on and so on.... > Can anyone offer any insight on these thoughts? What is your experience > with false > teachers in Sufism and how is one to know if a teacher is genuine? How does > one go > about finding a contact in Sufism? Does anyone know what Idries Shah is > thought of > among Sufis? Is he considered the great teacher that he seems to lead us to > believe? I am no expert on Shah. Of those I have spoken to who are on the Sufi path (I have not asked any Shaykhs, so keep this in mind!! I have only asked other students), some like Shah very much, others are cautious. Shah seems to be non-traditional in his approach, but that's not necessarily bad, of course. The form of the teaching depends on the condition of the student.... Peace, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 01:14:53 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16469; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 21:02:01 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA07077; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 20:24:00 -0500 Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA07072; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 20:23:55 -0500 Received: from gale (m-14.IP1.SineWave.com [206.13.48.46]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA32087 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:17:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3155F38D.3FE5@sinewave.com> Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:14:53 -0800 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah References: <2.2.32.19960324225429.0031147c@worldweb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: James McCaig wrote: > > Idries Shah was an early pupil of Hazrat Inayat Khan, I believe. Jim, where did you get this source? I remember hearing many years ago, that there was some interaction between Inayat Khan and Idries Shah's father -- actually, not positive. Again, that was verbal information passed on to me. Blessings, Nur Jemal From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 08:09:51 1990 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16885; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:32:45 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA02447; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:08:51 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA02385; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:08:42 -0500 Received: from temasek.teleview.com.sg by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08495; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:07:47 -0500 Received: from xyplex2103.teleview.com.sg (xyplex2103.teleview.com.sg [165.21.41.103]) by temasek.teleview.com.sg (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA23558 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:07:38 +0800 Message-Id: <259F104F.2FB4@teleview.com.sg> Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1990 00:09:51 -0800 From: samat X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Ahmad Ibn Idris Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Friends Of Tariqas. I would greatly appreciates if oneone could furnish me with informations regarding Ahmad Ibn Idris,Ibrahim Ar-Rashid and Mohamad Ad-Dandarawi. Thanking You In Anticipations Samat From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 04:59:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14257; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 00:33:26 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA12704; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:59:58 -0500 Received: from Vir.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA12699; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:59:55 -0500 From: beewrite@vir.com Received: from ipdyne10.vir.com [199.202.197.10] by Vir.com (8.7.1/v1.1) with SMTP id XAA21870 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:59:51 -0500 (est) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:59:51 -0500 (est) Message-Id: <199603250459.XAA21870@Vir.com> X-Sender: beewrite@vir.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 2 (High) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Ahmad Ibn Idris Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >Dear Friends Of Tariqas. > > I would greatly appreciates if oneone could furnish me with > informations regarding Ahmad Ibn Idris,Ibrahim Ar-Rashid and > Mohamad Ad-Dandarawi. > > Thanking You In Anticipations > Samat > > Assalamu alaykum, There is extensive info on sidi Ahmad ibn idris in yussuf An-nabahany's"Jaami' karamati'lAwliaa",in arabic. Wassalam,Bee. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 03:45:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21980; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 01:06:06 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA17015; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 00:38:50 -0500 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA16990; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 00:38:44 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA27004 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 22:45:54 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 22:45:54 -0500 Message-Id: <960324224553_360905349@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: the atmosphere for trust --- Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Mark, Trust, it is not something that can be given in a moment. We are so used to quickness, but giving trust can take a long time, in the mean time you give as much trust as you can but it is a wise person who realizes that full trust is realized only when the teacher has passed the test that you didn't know you were giving. Some people get married after knowing each other for only a day, and others wait a few years, but in both cases, the fullness of one's being can only be given by one who knows thier full being and only accepted by one who sees thier full being and that just usually takes time. When learning to climb mountains it is best to give trust to the guide who will take you beyond what you perceive as your limits. But the wise guide realizes that it will take time before you can give your full trust to him/her. and it is the wise student who realizes that s/he has limits of trust and that trust is a delicate line tethering student to teacher and it must be noursided by both sides so that it grows into a strong rope. and re: " use objective means to bring us closer to reality, " ultimatly nothing is objectve, and everything is within one's heart as Mahmood Shabistaire said: ""Behold the world entirely composed in yourself. The world is man and man is a world" My experience has been similar to yours in regard to damaging "teachers" I suspect everyone here has had this experience, and the answer seems to lie, not so much in the stature of the teacher but in the heart of the student, the student who can know when his or her heart is moved .... but that is just as hard as finding the girl (or guy) of your dreams, and just like that search the crux of the problem is not so much in the other but in the honesty and sensitivity of the self. I must admit that i really appreciated the comment of Amber/Berkely who said in her post: "I expect a few unpleasant and "non perfect" moments with the group and with the teacher and do what I can to contribute to an atmosphere where I can hear the message." it is all anyone can do and pray to God when His/Her grace is felt. love, Asha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 01:30:18 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26605; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 01:29:01 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA19658; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 01:06:30 -0500 Received: from orange.printronix.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA19653; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 01:06:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199603250606.BAA19653@europe.std.com> Received: from VMS MAIL by orange.printronix.com (NRC MAIL Version 1.3); 24-MAR-1996 22:07:36 Date: Sun, 24 MAR 96 22:05:52 From: "M.I.S. DEPT" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Ahmad Ibn Idris X-Vms-To: ORANGE::IPMAIL%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" X-Vms-Cc: NOORDIN Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: if dont read Arabic you can get a book by R.S Fahey entitled Ahmad bin Idris - The Enigmatic Saint Wassalam Noordin From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 07:07:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08585; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:33:32 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA26643; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:08:37 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA26630; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:08:34 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04198; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:07:32 -0500 Received: from Ruxton.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u16N5-000FuTC; Sun, 24 Mar 96 23:07 PST Message-Id: Date: Sun, 24 Mar 96 23:07 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: al Huk Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Al Huk Here is an explanation of what it means to fear Your Lord: truth stands open and in the light frightening away fear itself in horror Truth makes shame disappear it casts away all sin leaving just the mark. Stamp it now upon my forehead, Lord, the letters from the sisila and chain. Stamp it now upon my soul, this pledge I am to You, no matter how hot the fire and the burning. Purify the idiocy used as garments for this soul and leave me naked in the fire as I declare my love to You! Teach me the oath from the companions of your last Seal let me re-experience the dessert pledge they made by night! Record that I may recite by living and experiential memory the six hundred sixty six thousand verses of Your Qu'ran with every breath this life does breathe in accordance to the full measure of Your Love and within me, if You please an increased capacity.. These are the ways of Your honey mead a sweet poison which leaves me meek and praying that we learn to fear our Lord and be rich as a king in sovereignty and as wise as an idiot in poverty. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 12:06:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04008; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:08:43 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18397; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:08:42 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03614; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:06:38 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18287; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:06:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:06:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199603251206.HAA18287@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Mon Mar 25 07:06:36 1996 Return-Path: Received: from severn.wash.inmet.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18281; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:06:35 -0500 Received: from wayne.wash.inmet.com by severn.wash.inmet.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA24450; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:06:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:06:48 -0500 From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Message-Id: <9603251206.AA24450@severn.wash.inmet.com> Received: by wayne.wash.inmet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00549; Mon, 25 Mar 96 07:06:28 EST To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960324225429.0031147c@worldweb.net> (message from James McCaig on Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:54:29 -0500) Subject: Re: Idries Shah James McCaig writes: Idries Shah was an early pupil of Hazrat Inayat Khan, I believe. Khan is usually credited with being the first to bring the Sufi Message to the West. Perceptive readers of Ralph Waldo Emerson or Thoreau might dispute this. While this would not surprise me at all --- both Shah and his father have often written on the usefulness of multiple influences, if undertaken with knowledge and not as a dilettante --- it is the first I have heard of it. Could you possibly give a reference? Requests for references can be a pest, and are often unfair --- why expect you to do my work? Nevertheless, I have read as much of Shah as I can and have not run accross this. Any help would be appreciated. Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.inmet.com/~dlb From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 12:07:03 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04078; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:08:58 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18430; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:08:57 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03658; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:03 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18316; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199603251207.HAA18316@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Mon Mar 25 07:07:00 1996 Return-Path: Received: from severn.wash.inmet.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18311; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:06:58 -0500 Received: from wayne.wash.inmet.com by severn.wash.inmet.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA24453; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:15 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:15 -0500 From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Message-Id: <9603251207.AA24453@severn.wash.inmet.com> Received: by wayne.wash.inmet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00550; Mon, 25 Mar 96 07:06:55 EST To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199603242118.QAA15844@ns1.net-gate.com> (ennea@net-gate.com) Subject: Re: Idries Shah From: ennea@net-gate.com Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:18:06 -0500 X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2605 In the past year, I have been reading most books by Idries Shah and what seems to be a group of his co-writers. I am very intrigued by his works. In my mind, he ties all of Sufism together in a way that never was apparent to me before, but is the most logical and simplistic of ways. Of all that I have read so far, his teachings strike me as the most real and true. Though many veils have been lifted by his teachings, some new confusion has formed in my mind and I write to ask for others 'opinions.' After reading his books, I have come to feel that all forms of Sufism I have come in physical contact with are degenerative forms of Sufism. It is not because they have not met the criteria he has given but because I now see things that I did not see before that lead me to feel they are artificial. I have met 'Sufis' that ask me to repeat things in languages I do not understand, perform dances that were designed for men hundreds of years ago, etc, or they sit on a cushion above everyone else and call themselves by glorious titles, etc. I feel that they are false teachers but then I wonder if possibly they are only testing me. I am left in a very confused state and I wonder how I will ever find something 'real.' Idries Shah seems to 'drop clues' that would lead a reader to feel that Idries Shah is one of the few real teachers or that he represents the few real teachers. In books by other authors (though by the same publisher), the author speaks of how Idries Shah is the real representative of Sufism in the West, and how he is the chosen one to plant the seed in the West. He is often glorified by these other writers in books that he himself has compiled. He also has perfectly left clues in his books that would draw a person with the background in the 'Fourth-Way' (the teachings of Gurdjieff, in which I started my search) to Sufism and to abandon the 4th-Way. Though he speaks very strongly against conditioning, this seems to me to be a form of conditioning and because of it, I am a little untrusting of him. Can anyone offer any insight on these thoughts? What is your experience with false teachers in Sufism and how is one to know if a teacher is genuine? How does one go about finding a contact in Sufism? Does anyone know what Idries Shah is thought of among Sufis? Is he considered the great teacher that he seems to lead us to believe? I would appreciate any answers or comments to the questions and ideas I have raised, and also any other information about Idries Shah that could be offered. Thank you all for your time. Sincerely, Mark Fenkner Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.inmet.com/~dlb From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 12:08:59 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04507; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:10:40 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18601; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:10:40 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04085; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:09:00 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18439; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:08:59 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:08:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199603251208.HAA18439@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Mon Mar 25 07:08:57 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18427; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:08:57 -0500 Received: from severn.wash.inmet.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03655; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:03 -0500 Received: from wayne.wash.inmet.com by severn.wash.inmet.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA24453; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:15 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:15 -0500 From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Message-Id: <9603251207.AA24453@severn.wash.inmet.com> Received: by wayne.wash.inmet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00550; Mon, 25 Mar 96 07:06:55 EST To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199603242118.QAA15844@ns1.net-gate.com> (ennea@net-gate.com) Subject: Re: Idries Shah From: ennea@net-gate.com Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:18:06 -0500 X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2605 In the past year, I have been reading most books by Idries Shah and what seems to be a group of his co-writers. I am very intrigued by his works. In my mind, he ties all of Sufism together in a way that never was apparent to me before, but is the most logical and simplistic of ways. Of all that I have read so far, his teachings strike me as the most real and true. Though many veils have been lifted by his teachings, some new confusion has formed in my mind and I write to ask for others 'opinions.' After reading his books, I have come to feel that all forms of Sufism I have come in physical contact with are degenerative forms of Sufism. It is not because they have not met the criteria he has given but because I now see things that I did not see before that lead me to feel they are artificial. I have met 'Sufis' that ask me to repeat things in languages I do not understand, perform dances that were designed for men hundreds of years ago, etc, or they sit on a cushion above everyone else and call themselves by glorious titles, etc. I feel that they are false teachers but then I wonder if possibly they are only testing me. I am left in a very confused state and I wonder how I will ever find something 'real.' Idries Shah seems to 'drop clues' that would lead a reader to feel that Idries Shah is one of the few real teachers or that he represents the few real teachers. In books by other authors (though by the same publisher), the author speaks of how Idries Shah is the real representative of Sufism in the West, and how he is the chosen one to plant the seed in the West. He is often glorified by these other writers in books that he himself has compiled. He also has perfectly left clues in his books that would draw a person with the background in the 'Fourth-Way' (the teachings of Gurdjieff, in which I started my search) to Sufism and to abandon the 4th-Way. Though he speaks very strongly against conditioning, this seems to me to be a form of conditioning and because of it, I am a little untrusting of him. Can anyone offer any insight on these thoughts? What is your experience with false teachers in Sufism and how is one to know if a teacher is genuine? How does one go about finding a contact in Sufism? Does anyone know what Idries Shah is thought of among Sufis? Is he considered the great teacher that he seems to lead us to believe? I would appreciate any answers or comments to the questions and ideas I have raised, and also any other information about Idries Shah that could be offered. Thank you all for your time. Sincerely, Mark Fenkner Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.inmet.com/~dlb From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 12:16:48 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06020; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:17:36 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18982; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:17:35 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05832; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:16:48 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18853; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:16:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:16:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199603251216.HAA18853@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Mon Mar 25 07:16:46 1996 Return-Path: Received: from severn.wash.inmet.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18847; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:16:44 -0500 Received: from wayne.wash.inmet.com by severn.wash.inmet.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA24486; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:17:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:17:00 -0500 From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Message-Id: <9603251217.AA24486@severn.wash.inmet.com> Received: by wayne.wash.inmet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00584; Mon, 25 Mar 96 07:16:41 EST To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199603242118.QAA15844@ns1.net-gate.com> (ennea@net-gate.com) Subject: Re: Idries Shah I think that I just sent a copy of the following message to the list, unchanged. I hate such errors, and apologize: a finger stutter. Mark Fenkner writes: Idries Shah seems to 'drop clues' that would lead a reader to feel that Idries Shah is one of the few real teachers or that he represents the few real teachers. In books by other authors (though by the same publisher), the author speaks of how Idries Shah is the real representative of Sufism in the West, and how he is the chosen one to plant the seed in the West. He is often glorified by these other writers in books that he himself has compiled. He also has perfectly left clues in his books that would draw a person with the background in the 'Fourth-Way' (the teachings of Gurdjieff, in which I started my search) to Sufism and to abandon the 4th-Way. Though he speaks very strongly against conditioning, this seems to me to be a form of conditioning and because of it, I am a little untrusting of him. I would say, from my own interpretation of my own reading, that this is not so much "dropping clues" as presenting his material authoritatively. The claims by other authors, published by Octagon Press, are clear. I would not call this conditioning. Conditioning for me has a fairly specific meaning, involving some clearly defined practices (the generation of emotion, repetition, tension alternated with relaxation, etc.). It is appeal to authority, and should be treated as such. Can anyone offer any insight on these thoughts? What is your experience with false teachers in Sufism and how is one to know if a teacher is genuine? How does one go about finding a contact in Sufism? Does anyone know what Idries Shah is thought of among Sufis? Is he considered the great teacher that he seems to lead us to believe? I can only turn to Shah's writings; the task of choosing a correct teacher is, in general, beyond the conscious abilities of the normal student. As such a student, I do not have the knowledge. However, the fault in a teaching situation is far more often with the student rather than with the teacher. For myself, I will attempt to practice true seeking and true sincerity in that seeking. If I succeed in this, I am assured (by Shah, as well as most other spiritual writers, whether Sufi or not) that when the time comes, I will be given what assistance is necessary and desirable. This is not an emotionally satisfying answer; however, it is the only one I have been able to come up with. I would appreciate any answers or comments to the questions and ideas I have raised, and also any other information about Idries Shah that could be offered. Thank you all for your time. You have, I hope, asked the source? Most of Shah's books have an address for the Society for Sufi Studies (in the UK, an equivalent address). Writing them would seem to be the first step. I will do my best to respond, given my limited knowledge; however, I see no reason not to ask the source. Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.inmet.com/~dlb From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 16:24:03 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09534; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:23:19 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA00682; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:46:13 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA00665; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:46:10 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18804; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:24:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:24:03 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Idries Shah To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <199603242118.QAA15844@ns1.net-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. On Sun, 24 Mar 1996 ennea@net-gate.com wrote: > In the past year, I have been reading most books by Idries Shah and what seems > to be a group of his co-writers. I am very intrigued by his works. In my mind, > he ties all of Sufism together in a way that never was apparent to me > before, but > is the most logical and simplistic of ways. Of all that I have read so far, > his > teachings strike me as the most real and true. Though many veils have been > lifted > by his teachings, some new confusion has formed in my mind and I write to > ask for > others 'opinions.' > I have tremendous respect for Idries Shah, an even more gratitude. It was his books that introduced me to Sufism. > After reading his books, I have come to feel that all forms of Sufism I have > come > in physical contact with are degenerative forms of Sufism. It is not > because they > have not met the criteria he has given but because I now see things that I > did not > see before that lead me to feel they are artificial. As you develop, you will be more able to find the real teachers -- and to see that which is real in that which is imperfect. In my experience, ALL human beings are imperfect. The real question is not finding The One True Sheikh -- it is finding that source (or sources) of guidance that are Truest for you, given your current stage of development. If you are currently going through a stage of questioning the forms of Sufism you have been exposed to, Insh'Allah, that is what you need to do right now. Insh'Allah, when you find a form of Sufism (or, better still, an approach to Truth), which is True for you, Insh'Allah, you will be open to it. Both stages are gifts -- lessons to be learned from. > I have met 'Sufis' > that ask > me to repeat things in languages I do not understand, perform dances that were > designed for men hundreds of years ago, etc, or they sit on a cushion above > everyone > else and call themselves by glorious titles, etc. I feel that they are > false teachers > but then I wonder if possibly they are only testing me. I am left in a very > confused > state and I wonder how I will ever find something 'real.' These techniques are appropriate for certain people at certain times. To my understanding, Sufism is mostly about finding techniques that work to assist people's spiritual development under different conditions. If these techniques and approaches don't work for you -- look elsewhere (perhaps starting in your own heart). > > Idries Shah seems to 'drop clues' that would lead a reader to feel that > Idries Shah > is one of the few real teachers or that he represents the few real teachers. > In books > by other authors (though by the same publisher), the author speaks of how > Idries Shah > is the real representative of Sufism in the West, and how he is the chosen > one to > plant the seed in the West. He is often glorified by these other writers in > books that he himself has compiled. He also has perfectly left clues in his > books that would draw a person with the background in the 'Fourth-Way' (the > teachings of Gurdjieff, in which I started my search) to Sufism and to > abandon the 4th-Way. Though > he speaks very strongly against conditioning, this seems to me to be a form > of conditioning and because of it, I am a little untrusting of him. Excellent. I don't know Idries Shah, but my impression is that he ain't perfect either. That doesn't mean that he might not, Insh'Allah, be the right Sheikh for you (or anyone else) -- but in my opinion, the idea that he is the One True Sheikh for everybody is nonsense. Of course, I may be wrong about this as about many things. Perhaps he IS the One True Sheikh, or another Sheikh is the One True Sheikh. That is just contrary to my current level of understanding. > > Can anyone offer any insight on these thoughts? What is your experience > with false > teachers in Sufism and how is one to know if a teacher is genuine? How does Learn to listen to your heart. > one go > about finding a contact in Sufism? Be open to the gifts that God gives you -- Insh'Allah, you will be given the opportunities you need! If you are REALLY drawn to Idries Shah, then it is your responsibility to follow his teachings. Please note that this will specifically mean that he will not give you a lot of personal attention. If that is what you need from a Sheikh, he's the wrong person. Understanding "the attention factor" is central to his work. > Does anyone know what Idries Shah is > thought of > among Sufis? This is irrelevant. If we were going to vote for a Sheikh, it would be a very different process than following God's will in the matter. The key to following God's will is to learn to listen to your own heart. When I say things to you, if they resonate with your heart, Insh'Allah, they have value. Otherwise, please stop listening to me!!! > Is he considered the great teacher that he seems to lead us to > believe? > > I would appreciate any answers or comments to the questions and ideas I have > raised, and also any other information about Idries Shah that could be > offered. Thank you > all for your time. > Yours, Habib Rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 16:36:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26787; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:40:05 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04680; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:56:29 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04210; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:55:48 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27152; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:36:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:36:45 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Forwarded message To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:06:38 -0500 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)] >From habib@world.std.com Mon Mar 25 07:06:36 1996 Return-Path: Received: from severn.wash.inmet.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18281; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:06:35 -0500 Received: from wayne.wash.inmet.com by severn.wash.inmet.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA24450; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:06:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:06:48 -0500 From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Message-Id: <9603251206.AA24450@severn.wash.inmet.com> Received: by wayne.wash.inmet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00549; Mon, 25 Mar 96 07:06:28 EST To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960324225429.0031147c@worldweb.net> (message from James McCaig on Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:54:29 -0500) Subject: Re: Idries Shah James McCaig writes: Idries Shah was an early pupil of Hazrat Inayat Khan, I believe. Khan is usually credited with being the first to bring the Sufi Message to the West. Perceptive readers of Ralph Waldo Emerson or Thoreau might dispute this. While this would not surprise me at all --- both Shah and his father have often written on the usefulness of multiple influences, if undertaken with knowledge and not as a dilettante --- it is the first I have heard of it. Could you possibly give a reference? Requests for references can be a pest, and are often unfair --- why expect you to do my work? Nevertheless, I have read as much of Shah as I can and have not run accross this. Any help would be appreciated. Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.inmet.com/~dlb From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 16:33:31 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07381; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:49:50 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA05158; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:57:12 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04588; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:56:21 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24568; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:33:31 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:33:31 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Idries Shah To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <199603242336.SAA27919@ns1.net-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 24 Mar 1996 ennea@net-gate.com wrote: > >Dear Mark Fentner > > > >I believe that a all human teachers are false in some way and that the > >message can still come through them or us as we become teachers. I also > >believe that students need to appreciate the humaness of teachers and > >take responsibility in the teacher-student relationship--surrender YES- > >dependence-NO. Spirituality is an adult activity. A teacher is not a > >parent who a little one sees as perfection and then becomes disappointed > >when the teacher can not live up to this perfection. In fact I think > >often our own insecurities demand more and more impossible perfection of > >a teacher. I ask myself-am I learning and growing spiritually and is > >the emotional relationship good enough. A spiritual community can be > >like a rough ocean when one needs to swim vigorously--however one gains > >a lot more strenght and adventure then sitting in a hot tub in one's > >own backyard. I expect a few unpleasant and "non perfect" moments with > >the group and with the teacher and do what I can to contribute to an > >atmosphere where I can hear the message. > > > >Amber/Berkeley > > > > > > > > I feel that when we are to accept a person as a teacher, we need to give our > entire trust to that teacher. If such a thing as an objective man exists, and > if he is to use objective means to bring us closer to reality, we need to have > total faith in his actions which might appear subjective to us. Though everyone > is only a human, we need to be able to trust that thier human qualities will not > be damaging to our development. I have met many teachers that have good > intentions > and that offer some spiritual growth but in the long wrong what they offer is > incomplete and damaging to development. If I want to just make myself a little > bit better than I am now, this might be fine but when I seek to attain as > much as > I possibly can in this lifetime, to come as close to the truth as possible, this > just will not do. > There are different approaches to spiritual growth. One way that has worked for a lot of people on the Sufi (and Hindu) paths is to trust totally in one's Shaykh. A totally different approach is true in some types of Buddism, where you are encouraged to question everything -- ESPECIALLY your teacher. Once again, the question is what is right for the individual under that individual's current circumstances. Yours, Habib Rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 16:37:08 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07307; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:49:46 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04405; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:56:07 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04263; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:55:52 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27404; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:37:08 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:37:08 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: idries shah (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:03 -0500 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)] >From habib@world.std.com Mon Mar 25 07:07:00 1996 Return-Path: Received: from severn.wash.inmet.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18311; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:06:58 -0500 Received: from wayne.wash.inmet.com by severn.wash.inmet.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA24453; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:15 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:15 -0500 From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Message-Id: <9603251207.AA24453@severn.wash.inmet.com> Received: by wayne.wash.inmet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00550; Mon, 25 Mar 96 07:06:55 EST To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199603242118.QAA15844@ns1.net-gate.com> (ennea@net-gate.com) Subject: Re: Idries Shah From: ennea@net-gate.com Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:18:06 -0500 X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2605 In the past year, I have been reading most books by Idries Shah and what seems to be a group of his co-writers. I am very intrigued by his works. In my mind, he ties all of Sufism together in a way that never was apparent to me before, but is the most logical and simplistic of ways. Of all that I have read so far, his teachings strike me as the most real and true. Though many veils have been lifted by his teachings, some new confusion has formed in my mind and I write to ask for others 'opinions.' After reading his books, I have come to feel that all forms of Sufism I have come in physical contact with are degenerative forms of Sufism. It is not because they have not met the criteria he has given but because I now see things that I did not see before that lead me to feel they are artificial. I have met 'Sufis' that ask me to repeat things in languages I do not understand, perform dances that were designed for men hundreds of years ago, etc, or they sit on a cushion above everyone else and call themselves by glorious titles, etc. I feel that they are false teachers but then I wonder if possibly they are only testing me. I am left in a very confused state and I wonder how I will ever find something 'real.' Idries Shah seems to 'drop clues' that would lead a reader to feel that Idries Shah is one of the few real teachers or that he represents the few real teachers. In books by other authors (though by the same publisher), the author speaks of how Idries Shah is the real representative of Sufism in the West, and how he is the chosen one to plant the seed in the West. He is often glorified by these other writers in books that he himself has compiled. He also has perfectly left clues in his books that would draw a person with the background in the 'Fourth-Way' (the teachings of Gurdjieff, in which I started my search) to Sufism and to abandon the 4th-Way. Though he speaks very strongly against conditioning, this seems to me to be a form of conditioning and because of it, I am a little untrusting of him. Can anyone offer any insight on these thoughts? What is your experience with false teachers in Sufism and how is one to know if a teacher is genuine? How does one go about finding a contact in Sufism? Does anyone know what Idries Shah is thought of among Sufis? Is he considered the great teacher that he seems to lead us to believe? I would appreciate any answers or comments to the questions and ideas I have raised, and also any other information about Idries Shah that could be offered. Thank you all for your time. Sincerely, Mark Fenkner Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.inmet.com/~dlb From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 16:38:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09054; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:51:36 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04022; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:55:31 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA03895; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:55:19 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28176; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:38:14 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:38:14 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: idries shah (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:16:48 -0500 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)] >From habib@world.std.com Mon Mar 25 07:16:46 1996 Return-Path: Received: from severn.wash.inmet.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18847; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:16:44 -0500 Received: from wayne.wash.inmet.com by severn.wash.inmet.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA24486; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:17:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:17:00 -0500 From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Message-Id: <9603251217.AA24486@severn.wash.inmet.com> Received: by wayne.wash.inmet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00584; Mon, 25 Mar 96 07:16:41 EST To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199603242118.QAA15844@ns1.net-gate.com> (ennea@net-gate.com) Subject: Re: Idries Shah I think that I just sent a copy of the following message to the list, unchanged. I hate such errors, and apologize: a finger stutter. Mark Fenkner writes: Idries Shah seems to 'drop clues' that would lead a reader to feel that Idries Shah is one of the few real teachers or that he represents the few real teachers. In books by other authors (though by the same publisher), the author speaks of how Idries Shah is the real representative of Sufism in the West, and how he is the chosen one to plant the seed in the West. He is often glorified by these other writers in books that he himself has compiled. He also has perfectly left clues in his books that would draw a person with the background in the 'Fourth-Way' (the teachings of Gurdjieff, in which I started my search) to Sufism and to abandon the 4th-Way. Though he speaks very strongly against conditioning, this seems to me to be a form of conditioning and because of it, I am a little untrusting of him. I would say, from my own interpretation of my own reading, that this is not so much "dropping clues" as presenting his material authoritatively. The claims by other authors, published by Octagon Press, are clear. I would not call this conditioning. Conditioning for me has a fairly specific meaning, involving some clearly defined practices (the generation of emotion, repetition, tension alternated with relaxation, etc.). It is appeal to authority, and should be treated as such. Can anyone offer any insight on these thoughts? What is your experience with false teachers in Sufism and how is one to know if a teacher is genuine? How does one go about finding a contact in Sufism? Does anyone know what Idries Shah is thought of among Sufis? Is he considered the great teacher that he seems to lead us to believe? I can only turn to Shah's writings; the task of choosing a correct teacher is, in general, beyond the conscious abilities of the normal student. As such a student, I do not have the knowledge. However, the fault in a teaching situation is far more often with the student rather than with the teacher. For myself, I will attempt to practice true seeking and true sincerity in that seeking. If I succeed in this, I am assured (by Shah, as well as most other spiritual writers, whether Sufi or not) that when the time comes, I will be given what assistance is necessary and desirable. This is not an emotionally satisfying answer; however, it is the only one I have been able to come up with. I would appreciate any answers or comments to the questions and ideas I have raised, and also any other information about Idries Shah that could be offered. Thank you all for your time. You have, I hope, asked the source? Most of Shah's books have an address for the Society for Sufi Studies (in the UK, an equivalent address). Writing them would seem to be the first step. I will do my best to respond, given my limited knowledge; however, I see no reason not to ask the source. Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.inmet.com/~dlb From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 16:37:46 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08364; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:50:46 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04733; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:56:34 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04267; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:55:53 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27851; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:37:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:37:46 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Idries Shah (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:08:59 -0500 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)] >From habib@world.std.com Mon Mar 25 07:08:57 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18427; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:08:57 -0500 Received: from severn.wash.inmet.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03655; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:03 -0500 Received: from wayne.wash.inmet.com by severn.wash.inmet.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA24453; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:15 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:07:15 -0500 From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Message-Id: <9603251207.AA24453@severn.wash.inmet.com> Received: by wayne.wash.inmet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00550; Mon, 25 Mar 96 07:06:55 EST To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199603242118.QAA15844@ns1.net-gate.com> (ennea@net-gate.com) Subject: Re: Idries Shah From: ennea@net-gate.com Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:18:06 -0500 X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2605 In the past year, I have been reading most books by Idries Shah and what seems to be a group of his co-writers. I am very intrigued by his works. In my mind, he ties all of Sufism together in a way that never was apparent to me before, but is the most logical and simplistic of ways. Of all that I have read so far, his teachings strike me as the most real and true. Though many veils have been lifted by his teachings, some new confusion has formed in my mind and I write to ask for others 'opinions.' After reading his books, I have come to feel that all forms of Sufism I have come in physical contact with are degenerative forms of Sufism. It is not because they have not met the criteria he has given but because I now see things that I did not see before that lead me to feel they are artificial. I have met 'Sufis' that ask me to repeat things in languages I do not understand, perform dances that were designed for men hundreds of years ago, etc, or they sit on a cushion above everyone else and call themselves by glorious titles, etc. I feel that they are false teachers but then I wonder if possibly they are only testing me. I am left in a very confused state and I wonder how I will ever find something 'real.' Idries Shah seems to 'drop clues' that would lead a reader to feel that Idries Shah is one of the few real teachers or that he represents the few real teachers. In books by other authors (though by the same publisher), the author speaks of how Idries Shah is the real representative of Sufism in the West, and how he is the chosen one to plant the seed in the West. He is often glorified by these other writers in books that he himself has compiled. He also has perfectly left clues in his books that would draw a person with the background in the 'Fourth-Way' (the teachings of Gurdjieff, in which I started my search) to Sufism and to abandon the 4th-Way. Though he speaks very strongly against conditioning, this seems to me to be a form of conditioning and because of it, I am a little untrusting of him. Can anyone offer any insight on these thoughts? What is your experience with false teachers in Sufism and how is one to know if a teacher is genuine? How does one go about finding a contact in Sufism? Does anyone know what Idries Shah is thought of among Sufis? Is he considered the great teacher that he seems to lead us to believe? I would appreciate any answers or comments to the questions and ideas I have raised, and also any other information about Idries Shah that could be offered. Thank you all for your time. Sincerely, Mark Fenkner Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.inmet.com/~dlb From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 16:30:15 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17528; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:00:22 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA05244; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:57:20 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04737; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:56:33 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22404; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:30:16 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:30:15 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Idries Shah To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960324225429.0031147c@worldweb.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: No, I believe Idries Shah studied with my grandmother in Minsk :-) Actually, I don't know a lot about Idries Shah, and, while it is possible that he was a student of Hazrat Inayat Khan, unless you are SURE, it might not be useful to share this type of "information." On the other hand, perhaps if it IS incorrect, it is actually quite useful -- since this type of thing is an illustration of what Idries Shah often talks about. Please forgive the sarcasm in this message. I didn't know a better way to say what I wanted to say. Yours, Habib On Sun, 24 Mar 1996, James McCaig wrote: > Idries Shah was an early pupil of Hazrat Inayat Khan, I believe. Khan is > usually credited with being the first to bring the Sufi Message to the West. > Perceptive readers of Ralph Waldo Emerson or Thoreau might dispute this. > > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington > Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore > United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > jmccaig@worldweb.net > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 18:33:46 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26443; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:37:25 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA19320; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:37:24 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22713; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:33:46 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA18821; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:33:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:33:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199603251833.NAA18821@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore)] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Mon Mar 25 13:33:43 1996 Return-Path: Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA18785; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:33:31 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29964; Mon, 25 Mar 96 10:33:19 PST Received: from kirin by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 25 Mar 96 10:33:18 PST Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA05849; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:33:22 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:33:22 -0800 From: mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore) Message-Id: <199603251833.KAA05849@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: idries shah (fwd) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Dave, > the fault in a teaching situation is far more often with the student > rather than with the teacher. For myself, I will attempt to practice > true seeking and true sincerity in that seeking. How do you do this? How can one know if one is truely seeking? I myself seem to be pretty helpless when it comes to increasing my sincerity. It seems to me a bit like Isa said: to those that have it will be given but to those that have not, even what little they have will be taken from them. The idea of a man pulling himself up by his own bootstraps does not seem to fit with this idea. So it seems that some of us are destined to 'get it' whiles other are not. If I am one that is not, then what is the point of trying. If I am one that is, then there is no need to try. Anyway, back to my question; How can one attempt to practice true seeking and true sincerity? Best Wishes, -Michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 16:09:31 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17998; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:57:27 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA13608; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:00:15 -0500 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA13597; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:00:12 -0500 From: Hafizullah@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA27922 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:09:31 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:09:31 -0500 Message-Id: <960325110931_454282117@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: My $00.02: No real teacher will ever ask you to do anything against your conscience. Therefore, know your conscience, and you will be safe from manipulation by false teachers and from real teachers who may be suffering situational or momentary ego-farts. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 18:35:47 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16446; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 14:22:36 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA18861; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:34:03 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA18853; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:34:00 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA08427 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:34:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.176]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:41:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960325183547.00385094@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:35:47 -0500 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:09 AM 3/25/96 -0500, Hafizullah@aol.com wrote: >My $00.02: >No real teacher will ever ask you to do anything against your conscience. >Therefore, know your conscience, and you will be safe from manipulation by >false teachers and from real teachers who may be suffering situational or >momentary ego-farts. > Dear friends, I would value this post way above the stated price. More like two pounds of gold and very well put! Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 18:29:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02255; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 14:47:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA22301; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:54:29 -0500 Received: from moon.nbn.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA22296; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:54:26 -0500 Received: from [199.4.64.45] (srf-45.nbn.com [199.4.64.45]) by moon.nbn.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA11686 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:24:23 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: ias@mail.nbn.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Eudora 2.1 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:29:38 -0800 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: ias@ias.org (International Association of Sufism) Subject: Re: Sufi Symposium 3/30-3/31 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > Greetings Hamza and other friends, > > I will be at the Sufi Symposium Friday night and all (or most of) > Saturday and Sunday. I would like to meet other tariqas > posters/readers too. Should we set up a day/time/location to meet? > The symposium is at the Cathedral Hill Hotel in SF (same as last > year); perhaps we could meet either in the main lobby or just outside > the main entrance. It would be nice to meet during a lunch break, so > as not to miss any of the speakers. > > peace, > > lisa. > > ______________________ > lisa.rapp@autodesk.com > > >______________________________ Reply Separator >_________________________________ >Subject: Sufi Symposium 3/30-3/31 >Author: tariqas@europe.std.com at smtpcc >Date: 3/18/96 3:06 AM > > >As-salaamu alaikum, > >It is getting near to the IAS symposium in San Francisco on 3/30 and 3/31. > >If any other Tariqas posters are attending, it might be nice to meet. > >Salaams, > >Hamza please come and meet our staff, too. we will be in the mezzanine area and probably Embarcadero. please come and let's meet. Sufism Symposium > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 01:52:52 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19535; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 21:25:57 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA25349; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 20:49:07 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA25336; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 20:49:04 -0500 From: ennea@net-gate.com Received: from ns1.net-gate.com (inetgw-cwi.cwi.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27917; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 20:47:12 -0500 Received: from modem11.net-gate.com (modem11.net-gate.com [205.136.25.231]) by ns1.net-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA29596 for ; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 20:52:52 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 20:52:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199603260152.UAA29596@ns1.net-gate.com> X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >I would doubt that Shah would claim to be the only "chosen one" >to plant Sufism in the West. Chosen by who? The Sufi tariqas >as a whole don't have a centralized authority.... >Many tariqas have several branches, and those branches may even >have branches, and so on and so on.... In the book 'Among the Dervishes' by O.M. Burke, Shah's position is discussed. I have tried to look for some related statements in the book, but in my haste I have only found one that is very direct on this topic. In the book, the Emir of Kuwait, Sheikh Abdallah el-Salem el-Sabah, is reported to have said: "In the case of the Sufis, there is a rulership, which jointly commands the whole organisation. The organisation is called the Mu'assissa (the Foundation). From time to time a "public chief" is selected by the Mu'assissa. You friend al-Sayed Idries, al-Shah, is one such person." If my memory is serving me correctly, also in the book it is stated that one person is chosen as the figure-head for the public eye in the organisation and that Idries Shah is this person. There is much more information about Idries Shah in this book for anyone interested. It is a very good book to me. Does anyone know of the Mu'assissa? I want to thank everyone for thier thoughtful replies. All of them were helpful in shedding more light in my heart. Sincerely, Mark Fenkner From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 20:46:52 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24113; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:34:47 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA13034; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:57:17 -0500 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA13023; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:57:12 -0500 From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA05064 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:46:52 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:46:52 -0500 Message-Id: <960325154649_361367201@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-03-25 02:40:17 EST, gale@SineWave.com (Gale) writes: >James McCaig wrote: >> >> Idries Shah was an early pupil of Hazrat Inayat Khan, I believe. > Like Nur, I didn't think the above was correct. And quite by accident, while looking up something else in Idries Shah's first book, _Oriental Magic_ I found reference to an Aquil Khan, who instructed Shah in Indian alchemy. There is a reference to the relationship between the Shahs and Hazrat Inayat Khan in the "Sufism" issue of Gnosis magazine . It's in the article concerning Sufi teachers in the US. Now if I could only find what I was looking for in the first place! It was a description of a Sufi healer at work; and discussed the importance of a bond of sympathy or good feelings existing between the healer and the petitioners before the work began. Ring any bells, anybody? Regards, Julie From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 15:56:17 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14355; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:21:21 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA21327; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:00:01 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA21313; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:59:57 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02801; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:56:17 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:56:17 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Guest viewing guide (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:52:58 -0500 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Rivercats@aol.com] >From habib@world.std.com Fri Mar 22 11:52:55 1996 Return-Path: Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA05865; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:52:55 -0500 From: Rivercats@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA03301 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:53:02 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:53:02 -0500 Message-ID: <960322114728_452320933@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: [phanes@cris.com: Comet viewing guide (resend)] Yunus.... Thank you so much for all the information...I printed off the comet schedule and gave it to a friend at the Emissaries. I SAW THE COMET!!!!!! 2 nights ago when it was clear out here. It looked like a big fuzzy splotch of light... but I SAW IT! Now, if you really are interested in something exciting... get into www.artbell.com the web page, and check out Richard Hoagland's column. By now you know about the NASA moon photos....as the press conference was held yesterday. PROOF that the moon is not made of green cheese... that ought to rattle some people. More anon. El From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 15:55:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17089; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:28:26 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA21384; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:00:14 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA21365; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:00:10 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02453; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:55:52 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:55:51 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Forwarded Message To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:40:49 -0500 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore)] >From habib@world.std.com Fri Mar 22 11:40:46 1996 Return-Path: Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04039; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:40:41 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17940; Fri, 22 Mar 96 08:39:22 PST Received: from kirin by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 22 Mar 96 8:39:21 PST Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA03316; Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:39:24 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 08:39:24 -0800 From: mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore) Message-Id: <199603221639.IAA03316@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: discussion group announcement Cc: michaeljm8@aol.com, mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sufi Perspective In a well known story by Mevlana Rumi there are many people trying to understand what an elephant looks like without any light to see by. They used their hands to feel different parts of the elephant in order to "see" it. Each one felt a different part and claimed the elephant was shaped like that one part. One said it was like a hose, others said a fan, a pillar, a throne, etc., depending on what part they had felt. Then Rumi commented that if there had been a candle in each one's hand, the difference would have gone out of their words. Those interested in putting the parts of the whold together in an attempt to "see" the unity we hear so much about from representatives of the world's religions are welcome to gather at: 427 California Ave. Palo Alto, CA 94306 Phone: (415) 329-9229 Time: Saturdays 3:00 - 5:00 P.M. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 05:12:43 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22259; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:37:52 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA22563; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:12:47 -0500 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA22555; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:12:44 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA09034 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:12:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:12:43 -0500 Message-Id: <960326001241_454895298@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: re Sufi healing practices [was Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-03-25 23:00:06 EST, you write: >Now if I could only find what I was looking for in the first place! It was >a description of a Sufi healer at work; and discussed the importance >of a bond of sympathy or good feelings existing between the healer and the >petitioners before the work began. Ring any bells, anybody? >Regards, >Julie Julie, re healing: there's an article on Hypnosis work in a Central Asian Community by Jaf'ar someone, in the International J. of Hypnosis 1962. I'd have to look up more precise citation info. If interested, let me know. and re connection, see that article plus any references to the concept of tawajjuh ... they're the bells I heard just a min. ago, in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 16:01:43 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19311; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:36:25 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA22289; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:05:02 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA22266; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:04:57 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06249; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:01:44 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:01:43 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: SHEIKH SERIF AL RIFAI IN NYC-MAY (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:12:31 -0500 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [ZIAulHUQ@aol.com] >From habib@world.std.com Sun Mar 24 12:12:28 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA05546; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:12:28 -0500 From: ZIAulHUQ@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09688; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:11:01 -0500 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA09162 for Tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:11:00 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:11:00 -0500 Message-Id: <960324121059_453597890@mail06> To: Tariqas@world.std.com Subject: SHEIKH SERIF AL RIFAI IN NYC-MAY HU, Shiekh Serif of the Rifai-Marufi Order of Istambul will be in NYC in the middle part of May and will conduct one or two Zikrs to which all are welcome. Also if anyone has a space which they can offer for the Zikrs, or can suggest a space that would be most appreciated. Now residing in North Carolina Shiekh Serif is the head of the Rifai-Marufi Order of America, and can be reached at: M. SERIF CATALKAYA RIFAI MARUFI ORDER OF AMERICA P.O. Box 296 CARRBORO, NC 27510 919-933-0772 For more information on the Zikrs in NYC call 212-265-4345 or Email at this address. HU From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 15:49:56 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26907; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:40:55 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAB19636; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:51:17 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA19612; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:51:11 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28729; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:49:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:49:56 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: ****Happay New Year For the Iranians*** (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Return-Path: Received: from kantti.helsinki.fi by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA16477; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:51:59 -0500 Received: from Elo.helsinki.fi (elo.Helsinki.FI [128.214.79.31]) by kantti.helsinki.fi (8.6.12+Emil1.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA06947 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:17:17 +0200 Received: from ELO/SpoolDir by Elo.helsinki.fi (Mercury 1.21); 20 Mar 96 12:29:00 EET Received: from SpoolDir by ELO (Mercury 1.21); 20 Mar 96 12:28:56 EET From: "Elmolhoda Morteza" Organization: University of Helsinki To: tariqas@europe.std.com Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:28:56 EET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: ****Happay New Year For the Iranians*** Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Message-ID: <1C388427A61@Elo.helsinki.fi> Today is the beginning of the new year in Iran. In Persian language the change of the new year is called "Nouruz". Literally it means "New Day". I would like to use this opportunity and wish all Iranians , specially those in Tariqas, a new year full of happiness and blessings. Ya muqallibal qulubi val absar Ya muhavvilal hawli val ahval Havvil halina ila ahsanilhal. Morteza From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 16:09:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03630; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:05:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA25983; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:48:26 -0500 Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA25978; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:48:23 -0500 From: Hafizullah@aol.com Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA24573 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:09:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:09:28 -0500 Message-Id: <960325110927_454282100@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-03-24 17:54:48 EST, you write: >Idries Shah was an early pupil of Hazrat Inayat Khan, I believe. Au contraire, mon cher. Idries Shah was born in 1924 and was a babe-in-arms when Inayat Khan was alive, and probably never him. Idries' father, the Sirdar Ikbal Ali Shah, was a contemporary of Inayat Khan and was in the West when Inayat was teaching, wrote extensively on sufism and oriental mysticism, and had nothing particularly good to say about Inayat. It's part of the "Inayati" mythology that our guy was the first Sufi teacher in the West, but it's probably more true to say that Inayat Khan was the first Sufi to teach publically in the West. Ikbal Ali Shah was here at just about the same time; he just didn't get the press that Inayat did. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 03:28:46 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14063; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:33:20 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA28051; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:09:27 -0500 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA28039; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:09:24 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA27690 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:28:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:28:46 -0500 Message-Id: <960325222845_255922066@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Names (short) [WAS ... Re: Names (long)] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: thank you Jim, I needed that bit of humor! treating a bird brought in by our cat, amidst the major crying of our daughter. the bird has come back to life, can flap its wings, and our daughter has given it the name Cocoa (our cat is named Chocolate); both children ask if we can have another pet.... Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-03-25 16:41:06 EST, you write: >Dear Jim, (now there's a NAME I can understand and identify with!) > >You can call me Jim, you can call me James, you can call me Maharaj, but be >sure to call me for meals and payday. > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 06:23:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18384; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:46:41 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA29759; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:23:39 -0500 Received: from homer13.u.washington.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA29744; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:23:33 -0500 Received: from localhost by homer13.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.03/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA71003; Mon, 25 Mar 96 22:23:26 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:23:25 -0800 (PST) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Names (short) [WAS ... Re: Names (long)] In-Reply-To: <960325222845_255922066@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 25 Mar 1996 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > thank you Jim, I needed that bit of humor! > treating a bird brought in by our cat, amidst the major crying of our > daughter. > the bird has come back to life, can flap its wings, and our daughter has > given it the name Cocoa (our cat is named Chocolate); both children ask if we > can have another pet.... > Jinavamsa A turtle would be a good choice. ma'salaama Lily From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 08:17:20 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10985; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 03:21:08 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA08256; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 03:21:08 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10268; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 03:17:20 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA08001; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 03:17:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 03:17:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199603260817.DAA08001@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Tue Mar 26 03:17:17 1996 Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA07989; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 03:17:17 -0500 Received: from thnelson.teleport.com (ip-pdx03-39.teleport.com [206.163.120.167]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAB06360 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:17:14 -0800 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:17:14 -0800 Message-Id: <199603260817.AAB06360@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: thnelson@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: thnelson@teleport.com (The Thomas Nelson Family) Subject: Re: the atmosphere for trust --- unsubscribe thanks... >Dear Mark, >Trust, >it is not something that can be given in a moment. We are so used to >quickness, but giving trust can take a long time, in the mean time you give >as much trust as you can but it is a wise person who realizes that full trust >is realized only when the teacher has passed the test that you didn't know >you were giving. Some people get married after knowing each other for only a >day, and others wait a few years, but in both cases, the fullness of one's >being can only be given by one who knows thier full being and only accepted >by one who sees thier full being and that just usually takes time. > When learning to climb mountains it is best to give trust to the guide who >will take you beyond what you perceive as your limits. But the wise guide >realizes that it will take time before you can give your full trust to >him/her. and it is the wise student who realizes that s/he has limits of >trust and that trust is a delicate line tethering student to teacher and it >must be noursided by both sides so that it grows into a strong rope. > and re: " use objective means to bring us closer to reality, " ultimatly >nothing is objectve, and everything is within one's heart as Mahmood >Shabistaire said: ""Behold the world entirely composed in yourself. The >world is man and man is a world" > My experience has been similar to yours in regard to damaging "teachers" I >suspect everyone here has had this experience, and the answer seems to lie, >not so much in the stature of the teacher but in the heart of the student, >the student who can know when his or her heart is moved .... but that is just >as hard as finding the girl (or guy) of your dreams, and just like that >search the crux of the problem is not so much in the other but in the honesty >and sensitivity of the self. >I must admit that i really appreciated the comment of Amber/Berkely who said >in her post: "I expect a few unpleasant and "non perfect" moments with the >group and with the teacher and do what I can to contribute to an atmosphere >where I can hear the message." it is all anyone can do and pray to God when >His/Her grace is felt. > > love, Asha > > From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Tue Mar 26 10:45:31 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29144; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 05:45:32 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id FAA15081; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 05:45:31 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 05:45:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199603261045.FAA15081@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: Majordomo@world.std.com Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE tariqas Reply-To: Majordomo@world.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- omason@cygnus.uwa.edu.au (Olive Mason) has unsubscribed from tariqas. No action is required on your part. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 08:10:36 1990 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07658; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 06:46:48 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id FAA14749; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 05:38:27 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id FAA14744; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 05:38:24 -0500 Received: from temasek.teleview.com.sg by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28295; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 05:36:21 -0500 Received: from xyplex1207.teleview.com.sg (xyplex1207.teleview.com.sg [165.21.41.27]) by temasek.teleview.com.sg (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA23049 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 18:36:10 +0800 Message-Id: <259F107C.309F@teleview.com.sg> Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1990 00:10:36 -0800 From: samat X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: [Fwd: FYI: VIRUS] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4F55264158CF" Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4F55264158CF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit fyi thanks --------------4F55264158CF Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from po.pacific.net.sg (po.pacific.net.sg [203.120.88.11]) by temasek.teleview.com.sg (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA23534 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:06:52 +0800 Received: from LOCALNAME ([203.120.81.34]) by po.pacific.net.sg (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11140) with SMTP id AAA15391; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:35:48 +0800 X-Sender: rajeshr@po.pacific.net.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: samat@teleview.com.sg From: rajeshr@pacific.net.sg (Rajesh Revindran) Subject: FYI: VIRUS Cc: rsingh@pacific.net.sg Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:35:48 +0800 Message-ID: <19960326073547.AAA15391@LOCALNAME> X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 >Return-Path: >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 23:29:13 MST >Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 8:37:54 SIN >Resent-Message-Id: >To: >From: "Kee Chye Ng" >Resent-From: "Kee Chye Ng" >Subject: FYI: VIRUS > > >Comments : > >------------------------[ Original Message ]-------------------- >To : Melvin Lee@3MFG16@MSP,David Seah@ENG52@MSP,35 PEM FE@ENG52@MSP,35 PEM BE@ENG52@MSP,35 PEM PROJ@ENG52@MSP,35 PEM STW@ENG52@MSP,B K Kwoh@MFG50@MSP,Twee Juan Koh@ENG52@MSP,Sushil Kaur@ENG52@MSP,Sunny Boon San Lee@ENG52@MSP,Ching Kiong Ng@ENG52@MSP,Boon Keng Tien@ENG69@MCO,K L Lim@ENG52@MSP >Cc : Kee Chye Ng@ENG52@MSP >From : Ser Tat Lee@MFG50@MSP >Date : Tuesday, March 26, 1996 at 1:58:42 pm SIN > > >Comments : >Important. Need to know. >------------------------[ Original Message ]-------------------- >To : Shoo Cheng Lim@FIN15@MSP >Cc : >From : Shoo Cheng Lim@FIN15@MSP >Date : Friday, March 22, 1996 at 4:11:39 pm SIN > > >Comments : > >------------------------[ Original Message ]-------------------- >To : *@fin15@msp >Cc : >From : Annie Lim@FIN15@MSP >Date : Friday, March 22, 1996 at 3:48:39 pm SIN > > >Comments : > > FYI >------------------------[ Original Message ]-------------------- >To : Ronald Kwek@MFG50@MSP,Johnnie Wong@MFG50@MSP,James Tay@MFG50@MSP,P C Leong@3MFG16@MSP,Daniel Wong@EXE90@MTH,Chaladpru Areewan@FIN90@MTH,Hui Keng Ang@FIN90@MTH,Sylvia Low@MFG50@MSP,Fong Kam Jong@5MFG16@MSP,Lilian Lim@MAT15@MSP,Helen Chia@MFG53@MSP,Siby Tung@BM51@MSP,Annie Lim@FIN15@MSP,Donna Chong@MAT15@MSP,Henry Tan@MAT15@MSP,Jeffrey Ang@QA19@MSP,Victor Wong@MFG50@MSP,*@SQE19@MSP >Cc : >From : Jessie Lee@SQE19@MSP >Date : Friday, March 22, 1996 at 3:16:00 pm SIN > >Subj : Virus Alert >>> >>> >>>There is a computer virus that is being sent across the Internet. If >you >>>receive an e-mail message with the subject line "Good Times", DO NOT >>>read the message, DELETE it immediately. Please read the messages >>>below. Some miscreant is sending e-mail under the title "Good Times" >>>nation wide, if you get anything like this, DON'T DOWNLOAD THE FILE! >>>It has a virus that rewrites your hard drive, obliterating anything on >it. >>>Please be careful and forward this mail to anyone you care about. >>> >>>************************************************************* >>> WARNING!!!!!!! INTERNET VIRUS >>> >>>The FCC released a warning last Wednesday concerning a matter of major >>>importance to any regular user of the Internet. Apparently a new >computer >>>virus has been engineered by a user of AMERICA ON LINE that is >unparalleled >>>in its destructive capability. Other more well-known viruses such as >>>"Stoned", "Airwolf" and "Michaelangelo" pale in comparison to the >>>prospects of this newest creation by a warped mentality. What makes >this >>>virus so terrifying, said the FCC, is the fact that no program needs to >be >>>exchanged for a new computer to be infected. It can be spread through >the >>>existing e-mail systems of the Internet. Once a computer is infected, >one >>>of several things can happen. If the computer contains a hard drive, >that >>>will most likely be destroyed. If the program is not stopped, the >>>computer's processor will be placed in an nth-complexity infinite binary >>>loop-which can severely damage the processor if left running that way >too >>>long. >>>Unfortunately, most novice computer users will not realize what is >>>happening until it is far too late. Luckily, there is one sure means of >>>detecting what is now known as the "Good Times" virus. It always >travels >>>to new computers the same way in a text email message with the subject >line >>>reading "Good Times". Avoiding infection is easy once the file has >been >>>received- not reading it! The act of loading the file into the mail >>>server's ASCII buffer causes the "Good Times" mainline program to >>>initialize and execute. >>>The program is highly intelligent- it will send copies of itself to >>>everyone whose e-mail address is contained in a receive-mail file or a >>>sent-mail file, if it can find one. It will then proceed to trash the >>>computer it is running on. The bottom line here is - if you receive a >file >>>with the subject line "Good Times", delete it immediately! Do not >read >>>it! Rest assured that whoever's name was on the "From" line was surely >>>struck by the virus. Warn your friends and local system users of this >>>newest threat to the Internet! It could save them a lot of time and >money. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> $B!~"!!~"!!~"!!~"!!~"!!~"!!~"!!~"!!~"!!~"!!~"!!~"!!~"!!~(B > --------------4F55264158CF-- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 12:13:33 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23402; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 07:48:46 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA19148; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 07:11:41 -0500 Received: from mhv.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA19140; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 07:11:37 -0500 Received: by mhv.net (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA03924; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 07:13:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 07:13:33 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Graffam Subject: Re: [Fwd: FYI: VIRUS] To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <259F107C.309F@teleview.com.sg> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 541 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Just a note: This "virus" warning is: a) a hoax. "Good Times" never existed. b) About a year and a half or so old. I know the original message (nor this follow up) are on-topic, but I figure the original poster intended well, and I and posting this in hopes that the possible scare this might cause (and thus a barrage of on-list messages) will be avoided. Shalom.. Michael Graffam - mgraffam@mhv.net http://www1.mhv.net/~mgraffam - Mysticism, Philosophy and Art Page There is no escape friends, none, when the time is full - Aeschylus From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 13:35:17 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04050; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:02:05 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA26355; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:35:20 -0500 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA26348; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:35:17 -0500 From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA02633 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:35:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:35:17 -0500 Message-Id: <960326083516_256227511@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-03-25 21:17:57 EST, Habib Rose wrote: >The key >to following God's will is to learn to listen to your own heart. When I >say things to you, if they resonate with your heart, Insh'Allah, they >have value. Otherwise, please stop listening to me!!! > > Dear Habib: Your letter in response to the Idries Shah question was delightful. I greatly appreciated it. Thanks, Julie From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 13:31:39 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07723; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:08:56 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA26675; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:38:43 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA26658; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:38:41 -0500 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20026; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:35:15 -0500 Received: from venus by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:31:42 GMT Received: from altair by venus id ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:31:40 GMT Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:31:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Shetha Al-Dargazelli To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: O.M. Burke In-Reply-To: <199603260152.UAA29596@ns1.net-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > > In the book 'Among the Dervishes' by O.M. Burke, Shah's position is > discussed. > > Mark Fenkner > I am very interested to know more about O.M. Burke, I would appreciate more information about him. Where is he now ? did he write another book? etc., Shetha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 13:31:39 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08645; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:11:07 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA26088; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:32:08 -0500 Received: from hermes.dur.ac.uk by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA26071; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:31:53 -0500 Received: from venus by hermes.dur.ac.uk id (8.6.12/ for dur.ac.uk) with SMTP; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:31:42 GMT Received: from altair by venus id ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:31:40 GMT Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:31:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Shetha Al-Dargazelli To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: O.M. Burke In-Reply-To: <199603260152.UAA29596@ns1.net-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > > In the book 'Among the Dervishes' by O.M. Burke, Shah's position is > discussed. > > Mark Fenkner > I am very interested to know more about O.M. Burke, I would appreciate more information about him. Where is he now ? did he write another book? etc., Shetha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 15:14:01 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11232; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:54:33 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA11303; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:14:24 -0500 Received: from homer27.u.washington.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA11290; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:14:19 -0500 Received: from localhost by homer27.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.03/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA03326; Tue, 26 Mar 96 07:14:01 -0800 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 07:14:01 -0800 (PST) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Virus Hoax In-Reply-To: <259F107C.309F@teleview.com.sg> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum It seems the Good Times hoax is making the rounds again. I have received the same post on a medical list, sent from Sweden. Lily From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 14:46:44 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12863; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:57:21 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA08212; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:55:21 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA08184; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:55:16 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01796; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:51:26 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id JAA14855 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.177]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 9:53:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960326144644.00a89374@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:46:44 -0500 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Brothers and Sisters, I stand well corrected with respect to any relationship between Idries Shah and Hazrat Inayat Khan and I offer my apology to anyone I might have offended. Idries Shah was one of the first lights that led me to the Sufi path, as he has been for many of us. It was the father with whom Khan had the relationship and it turned out to be rather negative, because of a basic disagreement concerning Shah's (the elder) position that one must follow Islam in order to be a Sufi. My statement was not the product of any research, but rather the remembrance (in error) of a casual conversation with a friend. In my own defense, at least I did say "I believe" which should ring a bell for any Sufi. "Belief" is a weak position denoting lack of understanding and faith in what someone has told you. It was Khan's position, as I understand it, that Sufism did not exist without Islam and that Islam did not exist without Sufism. My own feeling is that nobody invented mysticism, that it is natural to the makeup of mankind, that it has always existed and will always exist. Going back to my original post, it should be clear that the "Inayati" knee jerk response is not mine. I have no doubt that the Transcendentalism described by Ralph Waldo Emerson is Sufism behind another mask and it preceded Inayat Khan's visit to these shores by about a century. IMHO Inayat Khan's unique contribution was to be able to explain mystical concepts in a clear and understandable way and to give practices that enhance one's experience of mysticism. He was neither the first nor the last, but one of the best. Warm regards, Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 14:21:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13316; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:58:19 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA11795; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:17:16 -0500 Received: from quilla.tezcat.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA11746; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:17:09 -0500 Received: from [204.248.82.212] (neilrest.tezcat.com [204.248.82.212]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.7.3/8.7.3/tezcat) with SMTP id JAA16429 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:17:02 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:21:42 -0500 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: neilrest@tezcat.com (Neil Rest) Subject: Re: Guest viewing guide (fwd) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Now, if you really are interested in something exciting... get into >www.artbell.com the web page, and check out Richard Hoagland's column. By >now you know about the NASA moon photos....as the press conference was held >yesterday. PROOF that the moon is not made of green cheese... that ought to >rattle some people. More anon. El Sorry, Hoagland is a notorious nut-case. There're so many rocks on Mars that you can find any configuration you like. Someone's found Kermit the Frog, too. Neil ------------------------------------- I'm lost. I have gone to look for myself. If I should return before I get back, Please ask me to wait. ------------------------------------- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Mar 25 22:38:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28563; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:23:00 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA14495; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:33:22 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA14482; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:33:19 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27744; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:31:45 -0500 Received: from Darcy.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u1KuY-000FxyC; Mon, 25 Mar 96 14:38 PST Message-Id: Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 14:38 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: al Wakil Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Al Wakil What sort of vice regent, emissary, or trustee could I be? Could you imagine the angel Jabriel being called a diplomat, Who or what could represent You my Lord who has no needs. To say you are a treasure is but a sleight to You. You are You and no other with no need for a partner or co-creator. That you allow the mysteries to be revealed for the astonishment and bliss of your creation in no way makes the act of co-creation real. You my Lord are more then just the universe I have learned to be fooled by teaches who water down pretending to know Your Names each of these are just another veil. You are no object to be discerned by property or measurement. You are more than the rules of nature, there is no nature to who You are which is why You are called indescribable, which is why there is the finding. My Lord my God You are the Trustee and the jewel is always yet to be discerned and I am nothing and stand in awe. My Lord You are the Reason and I am a speck of dust your beloved waiting astonished by Your kiss which brushes against these lips out of a love which has no need. My Lord You are all and all and nothing else exists. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 16:07:16 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14639; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:48:55 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA19941; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:07:20 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA19930; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:07:17 -0500 From: Hafizullah@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA21146 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:07:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:07:16 -0500 Message-Id: <960326110715_362266535@mail06> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-03-25 21:17:57 EST, habib@world.std.com (Steve H Rose) writes: >The real question is not finding The One True Sheikh -- it is finding >that source (or sources) of guidance that are Truest for you, given your >current stage of development. If you are currently going through a stage >of questioning the forms of Sufism you have been exposed to, Insh'Allah, >that is what you need to do right now. Insh'Allah, when you find a form >of Sufism (or, better still, an approach to Truth), which is True for >you, Insh'Allah, you will be open to it. Both stages are gifts -- >lessons to be learned from. To paraphrase I. Shah himself (I believe quoting someone else): "Your spiritual teacher does not have to be a Perfect Master. The only requirement is that your teacher have what you need." A story: Many years ago, shortly after I had quit the Spiritual Supermarket and taken initiation in the Sufi Order, I went to a meditation camp convened by the S.O. and featuring Pir Vilayat. Earlier in my spiritual seeking, I had spent some considerable time with followers of a guy they claimed was a Perfect Master possessing spiritual powers of a magnitude greater than your basic swami, and only a Perfect Master can take you All The Way. The idea that there was such a thing, and that I could go First Class if I enrolled in his trip, really appealed to both my vanity and my fear -- after all, I don't want to waste any time. So I was initiated in the S.O. and I still was wondering if I had made the correct decision. What if these people are correct? So there I am with Pir Vilayat, a profound teacher -- MY teacher -- but one of unknown Perfection Quotient. However, there were stories (true stories, I might add), that Pir Vilayat was close friends with one of the Perfect Masters in this other trip, and that that Perfect Master had in fact, upon his death, sent some of his students to Pir Vilayat. So I wrote Pir Vilayat a short note, which I remember because I was impressed with how cute it was: "Dir Pir: It is said that there are Perfect Masters about, beings who have the spiritual power to take you higher than the Average Avatar and who can guarantee your Enlightenment in no more than four lifetimes after your having set foot on the Path. Is there any truth to this, or is it Perfect Nonsense?" His reply: "It's all Mind." From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 16:17:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26306; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:04:24 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA22551; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:23:09 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA22522; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:23:01 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25702; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:18:18 -0500 Received: from Gabriola.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u1bQd-000FmoC; Tue, 26 Mar 96 08:17 PST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 08:17 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: al Qawi Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: al Qawi Bold I dive, no sink, no drown in the heart of Job, and now all that's left is an open breast waiting for the surgery. This is new. What manner of station could this landscape offer? How can I hold -- what to do to stay present, and breathe in the pool of strength, gained from the ordeals of this lover of Allah? Estarafallah! I decide to pray: "For just a stalled second in time grant me this favor, let the scalpel be a knife made from a laser light and steady the hand of my guide whereby some strength of character to ( in service ) do the deeds my words proclaim"! Now I seem to taste something, and hmmm , pressed an impression weights heavy against my chest but as I inhale, for just an instant, the attunement sets me free: and I discern Job's walk the cracks in his sandals and hear the sounds of la ilha il illah la ilah ha illallah like water splashing from either his or my dry tongue. Then the repeating and remembrance is all that there is left to-do; until distracted, from my intent I note that the intensity of Job's gate makes gravity itself begin to blush. An attack! Attack! A coiled imagination reels like an agitant with mischief born to strike! It offers a lens from clarity to rust stained eyes built for horror: Outside the atmosphere of his being I spy a landscape void of color, a hell draped in shadows, despair: popping boils, distress, disease, the slime of torture waste and bile the husk and shells devoid of purpose or one resonant drop of life, legions of blackness tossing away the carcass after pearls which turn to maggots suck the marrow dry, than turn back into an ornament, a chain of ivory skulls, worn in ritual by a self appointed priest a harlot of midnight promising tantric tempting spells a green baited jewel, the sweet elixir of a peacock's pride, or the power to keep this rotting flesh carnal and eternal on earth through all of time. Thank God my Shayke intuits when its best to call I listen and hear her say , " Turn turn turn your eyes within, at the core there is a metal being forged, a strength designed by grace, provided to true an earnest blade's sharp edge and cut through the apparitions and illusions from domains outside of normal consciousness. Arrest this imagination and use the psyche, breath and spirit use fire, light, and clay, use red sulfur, salt, and quick silver refine the breath, making it turn quintessential from your heart to a world outside fashioned from a newly envisioned shimmering light behind the light, as you remember and focus on the dhiker". By the end of this small meditation there is no doubt that a clear transmission has transformed the past the present and the future and I a disciple by my Shayke's watchful eye have been spared from being burst into madness swept under by swirling forces tossed toward the gapping mouth of the abyss and from being used as a toy by mere seducers who would test the faith of a servant and in that test leave a testament to strength reflected from the love of one like Job who knew the meaning of the word felicity. And this is the end of this morality play. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 15:00:11 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28691; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:07:07 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA21904; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:19:25 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA21881; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:19:19 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA16082 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:19:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.178]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:06:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960326150011.00ab4c4c@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:00:11 -0500 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:09 AM 3/25/96 -0500, Hafizullah@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 96-03-24 17:54:48 EST, you write: > >>Idries Shah was an early pupil of Hazrat Inayat Khan, I believe. > >Au contraire, mon cher. >Idries Shah was born in 1924 and was a babe-in-arms when Inayat Khan was >alive, and probably never him. Idries' father, the Sirdar Ikbal Ali Shah, was >a contemporary of Inayat Khan and was in the West when Inayat was teaching, >wrote extensively on sufism and oriental mysticism, and had nothing > Dear Hafizullah, Thank you for the correction you are quite right. Warm regards, Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 17:53:15 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05701; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:44:38 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA09796; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:55:57 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA09784; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:55:55 -0500 From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Received: from relay3.jaring.my by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02845; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:53:36 -0500 Received: from 161.142.239.253 (j15.brf41.jaring.my [161.142.239.253]) by relay3.jaring.my (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id BAA16234 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:53:15 +0800 (MYT) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:53:15 +0800 (MYT) Message-Id: <199603261753.BAA16234@relay3.jaring.my> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Inayat's Motive To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960326144644.00a89374@worldweb.net> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Maharaj Jim said (among othe things)" --------------------------------------------------- "It was Khan's position, as I understand it, that Sufism did not exist without Islam and that Islam did not exist without Sufism." --------------------------------------------------- I am not very familiar with Inayat Khan. From a few books that I read about sufism in general, I believe Inayat Khan was a sufi, and perhaps he was given a mission to teach Islam in the West. As a sufi, he has to "blend with the cultural environment" and spread the message of Islam. I would appreciate any comment on this matter. Best regards Maarof From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 18:21:23 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05103; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 14:36:48 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA13530; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:23:11 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA13515; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:23:07 -0500 From: NurLuna@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20353; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:21:24 -0500 Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA25486 for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:21:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:21:23 -0500 Message-Id: <960326132122_455292809@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Glowing Peace light your way, tariqas beloveds! In a message dated Sun, 24 Mar 1996, Mark Fenkner writes: >I have come to feel that all forms of Sufism I have come >in physical contact with are degenerative forms of Sufism. It is not >because they have not met the criteria he has given but because I now >see things that I did not see before that lead me to feel they are artificial. Salaam, Brother Mark! There is in the Hindu tradition an analogy about teachers and teachings. They can never be the Moon. They are at best a finger pointing to the Moon. One teacher may use a hand to point; another, a staff. One may sing as they point; another may dance. One may look up in ecstasy; another may kneel with eyes closed. Depending on where they stand, they may seem to point in different directions. To see where they are pointing, you go stand next to them. Even a teacher who just points generally upward shows the starting point of the true path. Such a one may end up being a better teacher than another who has astronomically precise pointing, because at some point you learn you must continue on your own, with your own growing awareness of the Moon's presence to guide you. Comparing, contrasting, analyzing, and categorizing the pointing will not bring one closer to the Moon. Hindu, Muslim, Christian, and Jew -- it's the same Moon. Rifai, Naqshbandi, Sufi Movement, and Chisti -- it's the same Moon. One moves toward the Moon by picking a path and walking it. I echo what brother Habib Rose said -- ask your heart. In my experience, the heart knows exactly where it can most clearly sense the glimmer of moonlight. May Allah guide your search! Farrunnissa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 19:06:15 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08087; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:31:39 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA20126; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 14:07:17 -0500 Received: from diamond.sierra.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA20112; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 14:07:12 -0500 Received: from frank (slt-d12.sierra.net) by diamond.sierra.net with SMTP id AA05660 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:07:02 -0800 Message-Id: <31584027.5347@sierra.net> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:06:15 -0800 From: Frank Gaude Organization: HighSierra Online (HSO) X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah References: <960326132122_455292809@emout06.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Asalaam-u-aleikum, Insh'Allah! > NurLuna@aol.com wrote: > > Glowing Peace light your way, tariqas beloveds! > > In a message dated Sun, 24 Mar 1996, Mark Fenkner writes: > > >I have come to feel that all forms of Sufism I have come > >in physical contact with are degenerative forms of Sufism. It is not > >because they have not met the criteria he has given but because I now > >see things that I did not see before that lead me to feel they are > artificial. > > Salaam, Brother Mark! > Comparing, contrasting, analyzing, and categorizing the pointing will not > bring one closer to the Moon. Hindu, Muslim, Christian, and Jew -- it's the > same Moon. Rifai, Naqshbandi, Sufi Movement, and Chisti -- it's the same > Moon. One moves toward the Moon by picking a path and walking it. For sure; is not God One? Is not consciousness God getting to know Self? Is not Sufi one who thinks of others before thinking of self, so that Self (SELF) shins through? Is not light from the Light, which is of the Will of The Absolute? > I echo what brother Habib Rose said -- ask your heart. In my experience, the > heart knows exactly where it can most clearly sense the glimmer of moonlight. Your heart, for some is intuition... many of us are born ignorant, and we become stupid through our education... education is of the head, intuition of the heart. Intuition is our High Self with its nudges, with its vast spectrum of vision. Sufi Spirit of Guidance is collection Highs Selves... Be still, very still... then the nudges can be felt and life becomes what it can become. Thy Will, not mine! Love, harmony, and beauty, tanzen of tahoe From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 20:10:53 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05011; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:49:01 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA00215; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:19:30 -0500 Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA00200; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:19:26 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA06147 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:10:53 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:10:53 -0500 Message-Id: <960326151051_362485791@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: FYI: VIRUS] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-03-26 07:13:33 EST, you write: > >Shalom.. > >Michael Graffam - mgraffam@mhv.net >http://www1.mhv.net/~mgraffam - Mysticism, Philosophy and Art Page >There is no escape friends, none, when the time is full - Aeschylus > > > > hello Michael, could you let me know the location of that Aeschylus quotation? thank you. thank you for taking the time to inform about the Good News virus story. I will note your URL and visit it! in peace (b-shalom), Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 18:49:10 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05910; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:51:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA02849; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:32:00 -0500 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA02798; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:31:54 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA29311 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:49:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:49:10 -0500 Message-Id: <960326134909_362412127@mail04> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: turtles and birds and cats [was Re: Names (short) [WAS ... Re: Names (long)] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-03-26 01:24:23 EST, I wrote: >> the bird has come back to life, can flap its wings, and our daughter has >> given it the name Cocoa (our cat is named Chocolate); both children ask if >we >> can have another pet.... >> Jinavamsa you replied: >A turtle would be a good choice. >ma'salaama >Lily hello Lily and all, thanks for the suggestion. Actually, the children were actually asking to keep the bird as a pet. So, it is morning. another day (or is that Farsi/Persian for another year?). [yes, happy new year: I was to a celebration of the Iranian community here on Sunday and invited to a Joladin <=Rumi tradition> chanting, and to a presentation by a representative of Javad Nurbakhsh]. Cocoa the bird has survived the night. The wing still looks damaged. We did not decide to have our cat bring it into the house, we did not decide to have this damage done, we did not decide whether the bird would survive or not. Well, we did hold it gently and take care that the cat couldn't get near it again, and did warm it, etc. We might say that it came to us out of the blue (out of the skies), from the lap of Allah. (I just made up that image. I apologize if it is not allowable.) (Let me know.) So, man plans and God laughs, as an old expression goes. in peace to all creatures of all galaxies, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 00:42:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17239; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:09:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA27806; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:39:37 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA27786; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:39:33 -0500 From: ennea@net-gate.com Received: from ns1.net-gate.com (inetgw-cwi.cwi.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27449; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:36:36 -0500 Received: from modem16.net-gate.com (modem16.net-gate.com [205.136.25.221]) by ns1.net-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA07748 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:42:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:42:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199603270042.TAA07748@ns1.net-gate.com> X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: O.M. Burke Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > >I am very interested to know more about O.M. Burke, I would appreciate >more information about him. Where is he now ? did he write another book? >etc., > >Shetha > > I am not very familiar with O.M. Burke other than from what is said in the book. I do not think that he has any other books but this may be incorrect. He was a man seeking and he found the thread. This books details some of his travels in the East. In many sources I have come across, it is a highly recommended book. Sincerely, Mark Fenkner From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 00:02:56 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08685; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 21:44:21 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA09305; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:59:19 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA09289; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:59:14 -0500 From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA02102 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:02:56 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:02:56 -0500 Message-Id: <960326190255_178686788@mail06> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-03-26 11:10:44 EST, you write: > Earlier in my spiritual seeking, I had spent >some considerable time with followers of a guy they claimed was a Perfect >Master possessing spiritual powers of a magnitude greater than your basic >swami, and only a Perfect Master can take you All The Way. The idea that >there was such a thing, and that I could go First Class if I enrolled in his >trip, really appealed to both my vanity and my fear -- after all, I don't >want to waste any time. I knew one other person like who didn't want to waste time, which is ordinarily a good thing. He tried to talk me into following his Perfect Master, who was Oscar Ichazo. If I am remembering correctly, and that is a long shot, Ichazo was a student of Idries Shah's brother, Omar Ali Shah. Jules From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 01:54:13 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16754; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:03:20 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA08789; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:57:13 -0500 Received: from epix.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA08782; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:57:08 -0500 Received: from unknown (lwbyppp66.epix.net [199.224.69.66]) by epix.net (8.7.1/8.7) with SMTP id UAA02431 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:54:33 -0500 (EST) From: sarmad@epix.net (James Brody) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Hazrat Inayat Khan and Idries Shah (Was Re:Idries Shah) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:54:13 GMT Message-Id: <31589e2c.1237309@mailhost.epix.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/32.182 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Although the reference is hearsay, Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan once said to me (and I heard it) that Idries Shah's father and Hazrat Inayat Khan lived in the same neighborhood in Paris in the 1920's, and that they were great friends. Regards to all, Abraham From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 00:10:44 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15918; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:11:50 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA04623; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:44:37 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA04610; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:44:33 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA22759 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:10:46 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id QAA12740 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:10:45 -0800 From: nagasiva Message-Id: <199603270010.QAA12740@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Re: Idries Shah To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:10:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960326144644.00a89374@worldweb.net> from "James McCaig" at Mar 26, 96 09:46:44 am Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1256 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: kaliyuga 49960326 |From: James McCaig |Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:46:44 -0500 |I stand well corrected with respect to any relationship between Idries Shah |and Hazrat Inayat Khan and I offer my apology ..... Ok, but I'm afraid I didn't see an analysis of the exact relationship between them. Did I miss it? If not, can someone offer us one? |It was Khan's position, as I understand it, that Sufism did not exist |without Islam and that Islam did not exist without Sufism. Many Sufis believe this faithfully. (See Tariqas Elist -- majordomo@world.std.com ("subscribe tariqas ")). |...nobody invented mysticism, ...it is natural to the makeup of mankind, |that it has always existed and will always exist. See Andrew Weil, _Natural Mind_. He has a similar idea about the desire to change one's state of consciousness, and I think this is related directly. |...the Transcendentalism described by Ralph Waldo Emerson Could you say something more about this, what it was and who are the best sources for study of the works of Emerson? |is Sufism behind another mask and it preceded Inayat |Khan's visit to these shores by about a century. Quite a claim. I'll watch for signs of confirmation. ;> tyagi From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 04:09:09 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29167; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:43:49 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA07499; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:07:46 -0500 Received: from bbs.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA07486; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:07:43 -0500 Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by bbs.cruzio.com id aa23104; 26 Mar 96 20:07 PST X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:09:09 -0800 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: james hallam Subject: omburke and "Documents on contemporay dervish communities" Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: salaam aleikum, "Documents on contemporay dervish communities" has an article by Omar Michael Burke titled: "Travels and Residence with Dervishes", Also this phamphlet mentions the enneagram as the "nu-koonja" from the account of "Account of the Sarmoun Brotherhood" by Desmond R. Martin, in this article are Naqshbandi type terms such as Naqsch "impress". Has anyone heard of this phamphlet. Considering we are on the subject of Shah And Burke ,I thought it would be good timing! Happy new year! with Love, james From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 05:01:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07870; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:07:56 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA21357; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 00:37:22 -0500 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA21329; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 00:37:15 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA17569; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 00:01:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 00:01:45 -0500 Message-Id: <960327000144_455859474@mail04> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: dynamics@islandnet.com Subject: Re: Is my mail coming through? Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello tariqas and Jabreil, I am sending this directly to you Jabreil in case you are having more general problems with receiving tariqas postings. The last three of your poems I have rec'v'd via tariqas are almost the ones you list below. There was Wakil as well as Huk; the third was titled ash Shah (not Shahid). It's Tuesday eve here. hope the problem is resolved for you. thank you, Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-03-26 21:45:10 EST, you write: >Subj: Is my mail coming through? >Date: 96-03-26 21:45:10 EST >From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com >To: tariqas@world.std.com > >I have sent two or three poems over the past several days and have not >recieved them back which I normally do being a member on the list. The names >of the poems were Wakil, Huk and Shahid. Would someone tell me if they have >come through. If so how come I am not recieving them, and is that to say >there is mail from tariqas which I am not recieving. Please pardon me for >taking up others time with such menial administrative tasks. Thank you. >Jabriel >----------------------------------------- > Jabriel Hanafi > Dynamics Unlimited > Suite 806 327 Maitland > Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 >Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 05:01:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24500; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:51:08 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA07663; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:34:40 -0500 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA07656; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:34:37 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA10222 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 00:01:50 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 00:01:50 -0500 Message-Id: <960327000149_455859566@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: omburke and "Documents on contemporay dervish communities" Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello James, can you say more about where this pamphlet is published or about the other specifics you mention? I know the anneagram in the Gurdjieffian context; what is nu-koonja? etc. thank you for elaborating, in peace, Jinavamsa in a message dated 96-03-26 23:09:01 EST, you write: >"Documents on contemporay dervish communities" has an article by Omar >Michael Burke titled: "Travels and Residence with Dervishes", Also this >phamphlet mentions the enneagram as the "nu-koonja" from the account of >"Account of the Sarmoun Brotherhood" by Desmond R. Martin, in this article >are Naqshbandi type terms such as Naqsch "impress". > >Has anyone heard of this phamphlet. Considering we are on the subject of >Shah And Burke ,I thought it would be good timing! > >Happy new year! > >with Love, >james From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 12:27:19 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10033; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 07:58:14 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18544; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 07:25:40 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA18535; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 07:25:37 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA24048 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 07:25:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.105]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 7:34:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960327122719.0038cfb8@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 07:27:19 -0500 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 04:10 PM 3/26/96 -0800, nagasiva wrote: > >Could you say something more about this, what it was and who are the best >sources for study of the works of Emerson? Yes, it has been on my mind to look into this and i will. There are instances where Emerson and Khan have used strikingly similar language. For now, here's a brief quote and several internet references: "I do not find that the age or country makes the least difference; no, nor the language the actors spoke, nor the religion which they professed, whether Arab in the desert or Frenchman in the Academy. I see that sensible men and conscientious men all over the world were of one religion." Lectures and Biographical Sketches. The Preacher. and from The Poet "For the Universe has three children, born at one time, which reappear, under different names, in every system of thought, whether they be called cause, operation, and effect; or, more poetically, Jove, Pluto, Neptune; or, theologically, the Father, the Spirit, and the Son; but which we will call here, the Knower, the Doer, and the Sayer. These stand respectively for the love of truth, for the love of good, and for the love of beauty. These three are equal. Each is that which he is essentially, so that he cannot be surmounted or analyzed, and each of these three has the power of the others latent in him, and his own patent." Sounds like the mystical concept of the trinity to me. http://www.cc.columbia.edu/acis/bartleby/bartlett/407.html gopher://gopher.vt.edu:10010/02/79/11 gopher://gopher.vt.edu:10010/02/79/6 Warm regards, Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Wed Mar 27 13:17:35 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22413; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:17:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA22915; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:17:35 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:17:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199603271317.IAA22915@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: Majordomo@world.std.com Subject: APPROVE tariqas Reply-To: Majordomo@world.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) requests that you approve the following: unsubscribe tariqas dlb@wash.inmet.com If you approve, please send a message such as the following back to Majordomo@world.std.com (with the appropriate PASSWORD filled in, of course): approve PASSWORD unsubscribe tariqas dlb@wash.inmet.com If you disapprove, do nothing. Thanks! Majordomo@world.std.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 13:15:59 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11860; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:54:18 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA22361; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:14:34 -0500 Received: from bbs.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA22355; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:14:31 -0500 Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by bbs.cruzio.com id aa12336; 27 Mar 96 5:14 PST X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 05:15:59 -0800 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: james hallam Subject: Re: omburke and "Documents on contemporay dervish communities" Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >hello James, >can you say more about where this pamphlet is published or about the other >specifics you mention? I know the anneagram in the Gurdjieffian context; >what is nu-koonja? etc. >thank you for elaborating, >in peace, >Jinavamsa ya haqq Jinavamsa and friends via the list, here is first few pages of this phamplet. Please note the curious wording in the contents page! FRONT PAGE: Documents on Contemporary Dervish Communities A Symposium: Collected, edited and arranged by Roy Weaver Davidson Society for Organizing Unified Research in Cultural Education, London, 1966 SECOND PAGE: Published by HOOPLOE LTD. 12 Baker Street London, W.I. First Published 1966 Contents: preface by Roy Weaver Davidson 1. Abshar Monastary by a correspondent of the times. Organisation,theories,ceremonies,and practices 4 2. Dervish Assembly in the West by Selim Brook-White. Activities in Europe,ideology,studiesterminology 7 3. Travels and Residence with Dervishes by Omar Michael Burke. Dress,special and general exercises,unfamiliar states produced 9 4. Study of Specialized Techniques in Central Asia by Ja'far Hallaji. Psychotherapuetic procedures,training, diagrams,objectives 18 5. A Sufi Organisation in Britain by Arkon Daraul. Comprehensive nature of the doctrine,manner of entry and initiation,objectives and processes of the Order 19 6. Account of the Sarmoun Brotherhood by Desmond Martin. Self-development,theory of knowledge as a substnce, communal observances,herb of enlightenment,circular gymnastic 22 Further Reading 28 MAYBE I can paraphrase a bit of this phamhlet later for our enjoyment :) james From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 13:25:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14583; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:59:46 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA24239; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:26:54 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA24224; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:26:51 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25963; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:24:00 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA24306 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:24:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.124]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 8:32:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960327132551.00b3d818@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:25:51 -0500 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Emerson (the Sufi?) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Tariqas brothers and sisters, Below, please find a quotation from Emerson's essay, THE OVER-SOUL. This passage and many others in Emerson's essays and poetry support the contention, would you agree?, that Sufism is as old as mankind and that it bubbles to the surface relentlessly and continuously without the need for guidance from any religion. Emerson gave up the pulpit to pursue the spiritual liberty which is natural and native to us all, when we have rid ourselves of preconceived ideas. "The Supreme Critic on the errors of the past and the present, and the only prophet of that which must be, is that great nature in which we rest, as the earth lies in the soft arms of the atmosphere; that Unity, that Over-soul, within which every man's particular being is contained and made one with all other;that common heart, of which all sincere conversation is the worship, to which all right action is submission; that overpowering reality which confutes our tricks and talents, and constrains every one to pass for what he is, and to speak from his character, and not from his tongue, and which evermore tends to pass into our thought and hand, and become wisdom, and virtue, and power, and beauty. We live in succession, in division, in parts, in particles. Meantime within man is the soul of the whole; the wise silence; the universal beauty, to which every part and particle is equally related; the eternal ONE. And this deep power in which we exist, and whose beatitude is all accessible to us, is not only self-sufficing and perfect in every hour, but the act of seeing and the thing seen, the seer and the spectacle, the subject and the object, are one. We see the world piece by piece, as the sun, the moon, the animal, the tree; but the whole, of which these are the shining parts, is the soul. Only by the vision of that Wisdom can the horoscope of the ages be read, and by falling back on our better thoughts, by yielding to the spirit of prophecy which is innate in every man, we can know what it saith. Every man's words, who speaks from that life, must sound vain to those who do not dwell in the same thought on their own part. I dare not speak for it. My words do not carry its august sense; they fall short and cold. Only itself can inspire whom it will, and behold! their speech shall be lyrical, and sweet, and universal as the rising of the wind. Yet I desire, even by profane words, if I may not use sacred, to indicate the heaven of this deity, and to report what hints I have collected of the transcendent simplicity and energy of the Highest Law." Warm regards, Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 16:35:18 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19633; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:41:13 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA05530; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:41:12 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17924; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:38:23 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA20657; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:35:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:35:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199603271635.LAA20657@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore)] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Wed Mar 27 11:35:14 1996 Return-Path: Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA20641; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:35:10 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28131; Wed, 27 Mar 96 08:34:58 PST Received: from kirin by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 27 Mar 96 8:34:57 PST Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA07639; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:35:05 -0800 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:35:05 -0800 From: mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore) Message-Id: <199603271635.IAA07639@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: Hazrat Inayat Khan and Idries Shah (Was Re:Idries Shah) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > Although the reference is hearsay, Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan once said > to me (and I heard it) that Idries Shah's father and Hazrat Inayat > Khan lived in the same neighborhood in Paris in the 1920's, and that > they were great friends. > > Regards to all, > > Abraham Yes, they were great and they were friends, but I wonder what was meant by the word 'friends' in this case. ;-) -Michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 18:06:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08199; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:09:41 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA08958; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:09:40 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06539; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:06:54 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA08585; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:06:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:06:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199603271806.NAA08585@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [ccscon35@ccs.carleton.ca (Rizwan Mawani)] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Wed Mar 27 13:06:51 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA08579; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:06:51 -0500 Received: from alfred.ccs.carleton.ca by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04146; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:03:16 -0500 Received: from superior (superior.ccs.carleton.ca) by alfred.ccs.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA02084; Wed, 27 Mar 96 13:02:27 EST From: ccscon35@ccs.carleton.ca (Rizwan Mawani) Received: by superior (4.1/Sun-Client) id AA07685; Wed, 27 Mar 96 13:02:28 EST Message-Id: <9603271802.AA07685@superior> Subject: Sufism and Homosexuality To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 13:02:28 EST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Hello all tariqa-netters: The purpose of my raising this issue is two-fold. First and foremost I have a valid interest in it, secondly I'm doing a paper on it. What I'm looking at in this assignment (its for a Religion and Ethics course) is trying to decode through the symbol of a tradition (the symbol can be ritual, doctrine, anything really) the cosmology of the tradition and then apply it to the ethical issue. So for example, if I was to take the doctrine-symbol of "mankind"in Sufism, I would then go about looking at concepts such as "nafs", etc, to try to arrive at some sort of world-view and value-system that Sufis inhabit. I would then apply this cosmology and axiology to the concept of homosexuality. The Qur'anic parable of Lut is indicative, but I don't know if its explicit enough. The other thing I was concerned with was that whether notions of essence over form, would put the Sodom and Gomorrah storie on the backburner and precede it. Much help, critique, would be appreciated. I hope I haven't offended anyone. Hopefully this will begin an interesting thread, and also raise the issues of human rights. Although I'm specifically looking at Sufism in my paper, I think this sort of exercise would be useful and applicative to all esoteric or gnostic traditions. As-salaam Rizwan -- Quote of the day: "When you grow up, your heart dies" Ally Sheedy in The Breakfast Club ================================================================= Rizwan Mawani email: rmawani@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Anthropology/Religion III (613) 736-7521 ================================================================= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 17:02:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14559; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:19:50 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA00788; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:10:30 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA00748; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:10:25 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16294; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:03:31 -0500 Received: from Hornby.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u1ycQ-000FzNC; Wed, 27 Mar 96 09:02 PST Message-Id: Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 09:02 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Sufi Symposium Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Looks as though I might be able to attend after all. Is there anyone I might be able to share accomadations with or use their floor, I have a sleeping bag. Thank you. Jabriel p.s. I'll need to know today. ps I'll need to know today. Please e-mail your phone number and let me know what time is the best to get a hold of you. ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 17:02:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16126; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:22:48 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA00810; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:10:32 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA00762; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:10:27 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16686; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:04:22 -0500 Received: from Hornby.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u1ycc-000GHTC; Wed, 27 Mar 96 09:02 PST Message-Id: Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 09:02 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: al Ba'ith Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Al Ba'ith There is a difference between annihilation and death; one release the other incomplete: a distinction between the last day and the new aeon; one an intercession, the other a passage from one state to the next: I say put a tomb on my head, and let me dance and turn remembering You Allah to Whom I will return. The rendering of my accounts is the same as facing this face underneath the mask I hide behind; and subordinate to the facade I pretend in guilt is there and tortured , but it is to the joy of that soul I go to seek release while standing to the side, giving up this stolen throne. The dear one's in my life love me for another reason than I think. They see what remains hidden from these eyes, it is the way I have kept myself blind: this breath of life just glows and patiently seeks emancipation which it knows as well as the setting of the jewel and the seal is all a part of a divine inheritance Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 17:34:27 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28992; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:47:20 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA04880; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:37:01 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA04872; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:36:58 -0500 From: informe@best.com Received: from blob.best.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15647; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:34:32 -0500 Received: from [204.156.129.34] (informe.vip.best.com [204.156.129.34]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA23152 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 09:34:27 -0800 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 09:34:27 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: omburke and "Documents on contemporay dervish communities" Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >6. Account of the Sarmoun Brotherhood by Desmond Martin. >Self-development,theory of knowledge as a substnce, >communal observances, herb of enlightenment,circular gymnastic 22 ------------------- ???? From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 20:12:30 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05349; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 16:41:17 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA03009; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:12:35 -0500 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA02989; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:12:31 -0500 From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA16549 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:12:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:12:30 -0500 Message-Id: <960327151229_257446067@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: omburke and "Documents on contemporay dervish communities" Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: As of the latest complete Octagon Books catalog that I have, "Documents..." is still available from ISHK Book Service for $9.00 (softbound). ISHK's toll-free # is 1-800-222-4745. Or Mail order to: ISHK Book Service Dept. B41A PO Box 381062 Cambridge, MA 02238 - 1062. Jules From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 20:10:46 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15466; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 16:59:53 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA03151; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:13:29 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA03133; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:13:26 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10676; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:09:01 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA27304 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:09:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.176]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:18:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960327201046.002f0adc@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:10:46 -0500 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Emerson (a Sufi?) Cc: wh@seas.upenn.edu Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear sisters and brothers, Here is another example of the convergence of the Transcendentalism of Emerson and Sufism as explained by Hazrat Inayat Khan. Each in his own way brings his explanation of that which for most of us is not sayable. Each has brought the beautiful message of spiritual liberty which lies at the heart of true Sufi thought. Warm regards, Spirit is matter reduced to an extreme thinness: O "so" thin! -- But the definition of "spiritual" should be, "that which is its own evidence." RALPH WALDO EMERSON ESSAY II "Experience" "Every step manifestation has taken has resulted in a variety of forms made by the different substances which are produced during the process of spirit turning into matter. The working of this process has been according to the law of vibration, which is the secret of motion; and it is the plane of the definite forms of nature which is called Asman in Sufi terminology." and "One may ask, 'How can intelligence create this dense earth which is matter? There must be energy behind it.' But this question comes because we separate intelligence from energy or matter. In point of fact it is spirit which is matter, and matter which is spirit; the denseness of spirit is matter, and the fineness of matter is spirit." HAZRAT INAYAT KHAN THE SOUL WHENCE AND WHITHER, chapter titled Manifestation Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 28 00:13:43 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27083; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:17:28 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA09605; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:17:27 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25508; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:13:44 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA09189; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:13:43 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:13:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199603280013.TAA09189@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Jawad Qureshi ] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Wed Mar 27 19:13:41 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA09180; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:13:41 -0500 Received: from indy30.gclab.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23775; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:10:22 -0500 Received: (from c640429@localhost) by indy30.gclab.missouri.edu (8.7.4/8.7.1) id SAA18701; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:09:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:09:56 -0600 (CST) From: Jawad Qureshi X-Sender: c640429@indy30.gclab.missouri.edu To: tariqas@europe.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Inayat's Motive In-Reply-To: <199603261753.BAA16234@relay3.jaring.my> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > Maharaj Jim said (among othe things)" >=20 > --------------------------------------------------- > "It was Khan's position, as I understand it, that > Sufism did not exist without Islam and that Islam > did not exist without Sufism." > --------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I am not very familiar with Inayat Khan. From a few=20 > books that I read about sufism in general, I believe > Inayat Khan was a sufi, and perhaps he was given a mission > to teach Islam in the West. As a sufi, he has to "blend > with the cultural environment" and spread the message of > Islam. >=20 > I would appreciate any comment on this matter. >=20 > Best regards >=20 > Maarof >=20 Salam,=20 Well, I must admit that there if this was his goal, he was far from=20 successful; I mean, a good number of his followers don't even represent=20 in the slightest even the most liberal forms of Islam. In the limited=20 meetings that I have had with a few of them, they have told me that they=20 really don't see the need for prayer, and their concepts of Allah (SWT)=20 are ussually borrowed from different systems of belief (Hinduism,=20 Buddhism) and they don't make any attempt to hide it even: they flat out= =20 admit that they mix and match what they want. =20 Now, to say that Islam can not exist without Sufism, this poses a=20 problem: how do we define Sufism? When this is clearly defined, then we=20 can make such claims. Do we define it as man becoming one with Allah? =20 Is Sufism the path that one takes to purity? Is it the path to=20 perfection of servitude? Is it to worship Allah AS IF we see Him? Is it= =20 to follow a saint? Is it to give allegiance to a Sufi Master? Is it to=20 follow the Last of All Prophets - may Allah send his blessings and mercy=20 on him? What is the definition of Sufism, and what reality of it do we=20 follow? Many people will give a definition to satisfy the person that=20 thy are talking to, but act totally different. When something like the=20 above quote is said, the terms have to be understood. I too am not very familiar with Inayat Khan, and I don't mean to sound=20 rude or disrespectful to him even. I have read a little bit of his=20 material, but I can't say that I am well versed in his thinking. =E3 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 28 00:20:10 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29648; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:23:19 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA10318; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:23:18 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28168; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:20:11 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA09819; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:20:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:20:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199603280020.TAA09819@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Jawad Qureshi ] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Wed Mar 27 19:20:08 1996 Return-Path: Received: from indy30.gclab.missouri.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA09800; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:20:04 -0500 Received: (from c640429@localhost) by indy30.gclab.missouri.edu (8.7.4/8.7.1) id SAA18701; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:09:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:09:56 -0600 (CST) From: Jawad Qureshi X-Sender: c640429@indy30.gclab.missouri.edu To: tariqas@europe.std.com cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Inayat's Motive In-Reply-To: <199603261753.BAA16234@relay3.jaring.my> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > Maharaj Jim said (among othe things)" >=20 > --------------------------------------------------- > "It was Khan's position, as I understand it, that > Sufism did not exist without Islam and that Islam > did not exist without Sufism." > --------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I am not very familiar with Inayat Khan. From a few=20 > books that I read about sufism in general, I believe > Inayat Khan was a sufi, and perhaps he was given a mission > to teach Islam in the West. As a sufi, he has to "blend > with the cultural environment" and spread the message of > Islam. >=20 > I would appreciate any comment on this matter. >=20 > Best regards >=20 > Maarof >=20 Salam,=20 Well, I must admit that there if this was his goal, he was far from=20 successful; I mean, a good number of his followers don't even represent=20 in the slightest even the most liberal forms of Islam. In the limited=20 meetings that I have had with a few of them, they have told me that they=20 really don't see the need for prayer, and their concepts of Allah (SWT)=20 are ussually borrowed from different systems of belief (Hinduism,=20 Buddhism) and they don't make any attempt to hide it even: they flat out= =20 admit that they mix and match what they want. =20 Now, to say that Islam can not exist without Sufism, this poses a=20 problem: how do we define Sufism? When this is clearly defined, then we=20 can make such claims. Do we define it as man becoming one with Allah? =20 Is Sufism the path that one takes to purity? Is it the path to=20 perfection of servitude? Is it to worship Allah AS IF we see Him? Is it= =20 to follow a saint? Is it to give allegiance to a Sufi Master? Is it to=20 follow the Last of All Prophets - may Allah send his blessings and mercy=20 on him? What is the definition of Sufism, and what reality of it do we=20 follow? Many people will give a definition to satisfy the person that=20 thy are talking to, but act totally different. When something like the=20 above quote is said, the terms have to be understood. I too am not very familiar with Inayat Khan, and I don't mean to sound=20 rude or disrespectful to him even. I have read a little bit of his=20 material, but I can't say that I am well versed in his thinking. =E3 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 28 04:16:36 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06908; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:18:20 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA16301; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:18:19 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05997; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:16:37 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA15881; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:16:36 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:16:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199603280416.XAA15881@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [ZIAulHUQ@aol.com] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Wed Mar 27 23:16:32 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA15870; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:16:32 -0500 From: ZIAulHUQ@aol.com Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04177; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:12:47 -0500 Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA24353 for Tariqas@world.std.com; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:13:07 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:13:07 -0500 Message-Id: <960327231306_179886782@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: Tariqas@world.std.com Subject: SHAIKH SERIF Al- RIFAI IN NYC- MAY HU, Shaikh Serif of the Rifai-Marufi Order of Istambul will be in NYC in the first part of May and will conduct one or two Zikrs to which all are welcome. Also if anyone has a space which they can offer for the Zikrs, or can suggest a space that would be most appreciated. Now residing in North Carolina Shiekh Serif is the head of the Rifai-Marufi Order of America, and can be reached at: M. SERIF CATALKAYA RIFAI MARUFI ORDER OF AMERICA P.O. Box 296 CARRBORO, NC 27510 919-933-0772 For more information on the Zikrs in NYC call 212-265-4345 or Email at this address. HU From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 28 04:17:56 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08637; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:22:22 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA16962; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:22:21 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06694; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:17:57 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA16226; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:17:56 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:17:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199603280417.XAA16226@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Wed Mar 27 23:17:48 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA16196; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:17:48 -0500 Received: from sunflower.singnet.com.sg by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05424; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:15:21 -0500 Received: from Singnet.singnet.com.sg (ts900-4017.singnet.com.sg [165.21.153.101]) by sunflower.singnet.com.sg (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA29837 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:15:16 +0800 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:15:16 +0800 Message-Id: <199603280415.MAA29837@sunflower.singnet.com.sg> X-Sender: warlord@singnet.com.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: Andrew Benjamin Ng unsubscribe ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +The Warlord + An Iconoclast + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + warlord@singnet.com.sg + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 28 03:21:22 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23018; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 03:06:08 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA06828; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 02:45:25 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA06812; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 02:45:21 -0500 From: HENRY.MARTYN@HMI.sprintrpg.sprint.com Received: from merit-mx1.telemail.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19763; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 02:44:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 22:21:22 -0500 Content-Identifier: QSU1807 36 Message-Id: To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Bernadette Roberts Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Hyderabad, India 28 March Has anyone read Bernadette Roberts' "The Experience of No-Self"? Has she published anything else since this book? Would anyone be knowing how to correspond with her? S. Taqi Henry.Martyn@HMI.SprintRpg.Sprint.Com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 28 16:15:46 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06329; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:31:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA24895; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:10:52 -0500 Received: from host.taconic.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA24885; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:10:48 -0500 From: omegapub@taconic.net Received: from ch_anx_p12.taconic.net by host.taconic.net; (5.65/1.1.8.2/13Jul95-1105AM) id AA02773; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:13:00 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 08:15:46 PST Subject: RE: Bernadette Roberts To: tariqas@facteur.std.com X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Bernadette Roberts has published at least two books after Experience of No Self, one with Shambhala called The Path of No Self, and a second by a small publisher whose name escapes me at the moment--or was it SUNY?--called What is Self?. Sorry I cannot help with an address for correspondence, perhaps someone else on this list will be able to do so. As far as I know these books are currently available, and could be ordered through this e-mail address or from your favorite bookseller. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Abi'l-Khayr E-mail: omegapub@taconic.net Date: 03/28/96 Time: 08:15:46 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 28 15:43:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10300; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:32:19 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA22556; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:46:15 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA22547; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:46:12 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07859; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:43:44 -0500 Received: from Brethour.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u2Jqv-000GJsC; Thu, 28 Mar 96 07:43 PST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 07:43 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Sufi Symposium Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Looks as though I might be able to attend The San Francisco Sufi Association Sympotsium after all. Is there anyone I might be able to share accomadations with or use their floor, I have a sleeping bag. Thank you. Jabriel p.s. I'll need to know today. ps I'll need to know today. Please e-mail your phone number and let me know what time is the best to get a hold of you. ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 28 15:43:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15170; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:39:26 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA22550; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:46:13 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA22541; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:46:11 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08134; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:44:18 -0500 Received: from Brethour.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u2Jqz-000GJQC; Thu, 28 Mar 96 07:43 PST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 07:43 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Sufi Symposium Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Looks as though I might be able to attend after all. Is there anyone I might be able to share accomadations with or use their floor, I have a sleeping bag. Thank you. Jabriel p.s. I'll need to know today. ps I'll need to know today. Please e-mail your phone number and let me know what time is the best to get a hold of you. ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 28 15:43:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02283; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:08:49 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA22916; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:49:43 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA22897; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:49:39 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10256; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:47:04 -0500 Received: from Brethour.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u2Jr7-000GJjC; Thu, 28 Mar 96 07:43 PST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 07:43 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: al Ba'ith Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Al Ba'ith There is a difference between annihilation and death; one release the other incomplete: a distinction between the last day and the new aeon; one an intercession, the other a passage from one state to the next: I say put a tomb on my head, and let me dance and turn remembering You Allah to Whom I will return. The rendering of my accounts is the same as facing this face underneath the mask I hide behind; and subordinate to the facade I pretend in guilt is there and tortured , but it is to the joy of that soul I go to seek release while standing to the side, giving up this stolen throne. The dear one's in my life love me for another reason than I think. They see what remains hidden from these eyes, it is the way I have kept myself blind: this breath of life just glows and patiently seeks emancipation which it knows as well as the setting of the jewel and the seal is all a part of a divine inheritance Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Mar 28 17:51:55 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04346; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 14:35:31 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA01254; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:57:21 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA01209; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:57:16 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25310; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:50:22 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA04707 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:50:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.105]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:59:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960328175155.002c0df0@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:51:55 -0500 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Emerson (a Sufi?) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: EMERSON "We are full of mechanical actions. We must needs intermeddle, and have things in our own way, until the sacrifices and virtues of society are odious. Love should make joy; but our benevolence is unhappy. Our Sunday-schools, and churches, and pauper-societies are yokes to the neck. We pain ourselves to please nobody. There are natural ways of arriving at the same ends at which these aim, but do not arrive. Why should all virtue work in one and the same way? Why should all give dollars? It is very inconvenient to us country folk, and we do not think any good will come of it. We have not dollars; merchants have; let them give them. Farmers will give corn; poets will sing; women will sew; laborers will lend a hand; the children will bring flowers. And why drag this dead weight of a Sunday-school over the whole Christendom? It is natural and beautiful that childhood should inquire, and maturity should teach; but it is time enough to answer questions when they are asked. Do not shut up the young people against their will in a pew, and force the children to ask them questions for an hour against their will." KHAN Today many think that at six years old the child should go to school;but this is a mistaken idea. This is the time when the child should be at home, because six years is the time of conflict, and seven is the beginning of a new era for the child. If at that time the child misses home education and is sent to school to be trained with other children, that takes away the distinctive care which should be given to it at that age. If the child has once been sent to school, one should not take it away from the school; but at the same time it would be better if one could manage to keep the child from school and give it home education till it is nine years of age. But if the child would like to go to school should one not send it? One does not send the child to school for its pleasure; and also the guardian can give pleasure to the child by giving it the training which it likes at home. It is not necessary that the guardian should teach the child letters and figures at home. The earlier one teaches a child, the earlier his mentality will wear out in life; and if one does not teach him, it only means that when the mind is mature it will grasp more quickly. Just as the voice producer says that if you begin to sing at a certain age your voice will flourish, and if you sing before that age it is not good, so it is with the mentality of the child. If the child begins before its time, it only means that in the end the mind will wear out before its time. AND It [education] can best be done by teaching children to play and work at the same time, so that when they are grown-up work and play will continue to be the same. All that one does with pleasure is done well and produces a good effect. Doing depends upon the attitude of mind. When the mind is not in a good state, whatever be the work, however interesting, it will not be well done. To bring about peace and order in the world it is very necessary that all work should be made pleasant, and that all pleasure should be turned into work, so that in taking pleasure no work is lost and there is pleasure in working. The central theme in the education of children should be the occupying of every moment of their life in doing quite willingly something which is pleasurable and at the same time useful. Life is a great opportunity, and no moment of life should be lost. EMERSON "The sweetest music is not in the oratorio, but in the human voice when it speaks from its instant life tones of tenderness, truth, or courage. The oratorio has already lost its relation to the morning, to the sun, and the earth, but that persuading voice is in tune with these. All works of art should not be detached, but extempore performances. A great man is a new statue in every attitude and action. A beautiful woman is a picture which drives all beholders nobly mad. Life may be lyric or epic, as well as a poem or a romance." KHAN (THE MASTER OF VOICE) Vocal music is considered to be the highest, for it is natural; the effect produced by an instrument which is merely a machine cannot be compared with that of the human voice. However perfect strings may be, they cannot make the same impression on the listener as the voice which comes direct from the soul as breath, and has been brought to the surface through the medium of the mind and the vocal organs of the body. When the soul desires to express itself in voice, it first causes an activity in the mind, and the mind, by means of thought, projects finer vibrations in the mental plane. These in due course develop and run as breath through the regions of the abdomen, lungs, mouth, throat and nasal organs, causing air to vibrate all through, until they manifest on the surface as voice. The voice therefore naturally expresses the attitude of mind: whether true or false, sincere or insincere. The voice has all the magnetism which an instrument lacks, for voice is nature's ideal instrument upon which all other instruments of the world are modelled. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 00:01:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19065; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:44:29 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA09695; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:59:33 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA09685; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:59:30 -0500 From: ennea@net-gate.com Received: from ns1.net-gate.com (inetgw-cwi.cwi.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24542; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:56:27 -0500 Received: from modem9.net-gate.com (modem9.net-gate.com [205.136.25.235]) by ns1.net-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA23442 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:01:50 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:01:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199603290001.TAA23442@ns1.net-gate.com> X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: omburke and "Documents on contemporay dervish communities" Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > >salaam aleikum, > >"Documents on contemporay dervish communities" has an article by Omar >Michael Burke titled: "Travels and Residence with Dervishes", Also this >phamphlet mentions the enneagram as the "nu-koonja" from the account of >"Account of the Sarmoun Brotherhood" by Desmond R. Martin, in this article >are Naqshbandi type terms such as Naqsch "impress". > >Has anyone heard of this phamphlet. Considering we are on the subject of >Shah And Burke ,I thought it would be good timing! > >Happy new year! > >with Love, >james > > > > I have heard of this book but have not yet purchased it. I find it very interesting though mostly because of the mention of the enneagram and Sarmoun Brotherhood. Gurdjieff often stated that the Sarmoun Brotherhood is who he received most of his training from, especially in the many of the movements exercises (maybe these are the circular gymnastics mentioned). I would be curious to know more information about the "herb of enlightenment" mentioned and to know what plant this is. I have often been interested in esoteric viewpoints on drugs since I was one of the fools that experimented in my youth and now wonders whether it was harmful or helpful. As a side note, I would like to ask if anyone can supply me with some general info on the Assassins. Please excuse me if this name seems vague but I do not know what else to refer to them as. Is there any good books about thier history? Sincerely, Mark Fenkner From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 02:08:43 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09033; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:33:05 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA06054; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:08:39 -0500 Received: from weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA06048; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:08:35 -0500 Received: by weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us id VAA09920; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:08:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:08:43 -0500 (EST) From: Bob King X-Sender: bking@weaver To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: a humble request In-Reply-To: <199603290001.TAA23442@ns1.net-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Greetings! I am new to this discussion. My connections to Sufism are tenuous in a way, but I sense a wonderful spirit in this group that would make this tenuousness okay. My connections are these: A friend of mine was kind enough to send me a book of poems by Rumi. I have always had a strong connection to spinning (as a metaphor, as a cosmic or magical thing), and I once read what I thought was a wonderful short novel that was somewhat obliquely about Sufism. I apologize if these connections are, again, tenuous. My humble request concerns the short novel. I read this book, returned it to a library, and can't remember the title or the author. It was a story about a professor who just sort of walks away from the life he's known as a Western style academic, and walks into Sufism. Maybe it's okay that this book kind of came and went in my life as a dream, but if anyone had read this book and knows author or title I wouldn't mind being able to pass the dream on to others! Thank you. . . Bob King From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 02:11:23 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14268; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:43:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA06243; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:10:22 -0500 Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA06236; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:10:18 -0500 Received: from gale (m-17.IP1.SineWave.com [206.13.48.49]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA23125 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:05:07 -0800 Message-Id: <315B46CB.8BB@sinewave.com> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:11:23 -0800 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: omburke and "Documents on contemporay dervish communities" References: <199603290001.TAA23442@ns1.net-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ennea@net-gate.com wrote: > > > As a side note, I would like to ask if anyone can supply me with some > general info > on the Assassins. Mark: Greetings and blessings. Look at Peter Lamborn Wilson's book Scandal with the essay "Secrets of the Assasins" There is also information to be found in Corbin's "Cyclic Time and Ismaili Gnosis" and "Temple and Contemplation" -- look under Alamat. If you read French, look at Corbin's lectures at the Eranos Conferences in Zurich. Nur Jemal Berkeley CA From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 02:08:43 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18844; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:53:09 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA06282; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:10:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA06276; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:10:44 -0500 Received: from weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26635; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:08:36 -0500 Received: by weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us id VAA09920; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:08:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:08:43 -0500 (EST) From: Bob King X-Sender: bking@weaver To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: a humble request In-Reply-To: <199603290001.TAA23442@ns1.net-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Greetings! I am new to this discussion. My connections to Sufism are tenuous in a way, but I sense a wonderful spirit in this group that would make this tenuousness okay. My connections are these: A friend of mine was kind enough to send me a book of poems by Rumi. I have always had a strong connection to spinning (as a metaphor, as a cosmic or magical thing), and I once read what I thought was a wonderful short novel that was somewhat obliquely about Sufism. I apologize if these connections are, again, tenuous. My humble request concerns the short novel. I read this book, returned it to a library, and can't remember the title or the author. It was a story about a professor who just sort of walks away from the life he's known as a Western style academic, and walks into Sufism. Maybe it's okay that this book kind of came and went in my life as a dream, but if anyone had read this book and knows author or title I wouldn't mind being able to pass the dream on to others! Thank you. . . Bob King From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 03:15:55 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00036; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:17:43 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA14110; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:17:42 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29261; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:15:56 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA13929; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:15:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:15:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199603290315.WAA13929@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Thu Mar 28 22:15:53 1996 Return-Path: Received: from s2.sonnet.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA13921; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:15:52 -0500 Received: from ppp11-mod.sonnet.com by s2.sonnet.com with SMTP id AA31857 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:15:29 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:15:29 -0800 Message-Id: <199603290315.AA31857@s2.sonnet.com> X-Sender: izzygirl@s2.sonnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@europe.std.com From: Mary Frances Taylor Subject: unsubscribe unsubscribe Mary Taylor Modesto, CA izzygirl@s2.sonnet.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 05:12:36 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02000; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:35:07 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA28209; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:12:44 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA28168; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:12:37 -0500 From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA00662 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:12:36 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:12:36 -0500 Message-Id: <960329001235_500776537@mail06> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: JHulvey@aol.com Subject: Re: a humble request Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-03-28 21:09:50 EST, Bob King writes: >I read this book, returned >it to a library, and can't remember the title or the author. It was a >story about a professor who just sort of walks away from the life he's >known as a Western style academic, and walks into Sufism. I had two guesses and although I don't expect either is right, you never know.... It might be Reshad Field's first book(sorry, I'm blanking on the title), although he (or the main character) walked away from a business rather than academia. It also sounds *very* vaguely like a mystery called "The Sufi Fiddle" by Richard Bulliet. This hilarious book is probably out of print but worth looking for at the library. Just don't expect a heavy, serious treatment of Sufism! Bulliet's written other novels -- The Gulf Scenario, The Tomb of the Twelth Imam, Kicked to Death by a Camel -- as well as a book on Islam. (He's a professor of Middle Eastern history.) If you find the title and author you're looking for , would you post the information here? Thanks, Jules From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 05:11:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03050; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:39:17 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA28046; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:11:05 -0500 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA28029; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:11:01 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA05660 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:11:00 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:11:00 -0500 Message-Id: <960329001059_180662560@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: a humble request Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello Bob, hopefully you'll receive exact author and title in answer to your request. I have no specific recollection of such a book. For some reason I thought, though, of the author Reshad Feild. Have you seen any of his books? (yes, it's spelled f,e,i,l,d, and not Field). You might want to check them out in this search of yours. good luck, in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-03-28 21:09:50 EST, you write: >My humble request concerns the short novel. I read this book, returned >it to a library, and can't remember the title or the author. It was a >story about a professor who just sort of walks away from the life he's >known as a Western style academic, and walks into Sufism. Maybe it's okay >that this book kind of came and went in my life as a dream, but if anyone >had read this book and knows author or title I wouldn't mind being able >to pass the dream on to others! Thank you. . . > >Bob King From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 07:05:48 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05383; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:24:52 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA12532; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:05:20 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA12501; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:05:15 -0500 Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29004; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:04:50 -0500 Received: from gale (m-13.IP1.SineWave.com [206.13.48.45]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA24542 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:59:37 -0800 Message-Id: <315B8BCC.3832@sinewave.com> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 23:05:48 -0800 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: More Info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings and blessings All, Since this appears to be a time for requesting reference material, thought I would ask whether anyone could help direct me to some additional literature on Kashmiri Sufism -- I do have Rafiqi's "Sufism in Kashmir" (Bharatiya Pub), some poem collections published by Srinagar University (Rasul Mir, Ghulam Mahjoor, and Nuruddin Wali Rishi), G. Tikku's "Persian Poetry in Kashmir" (Univ. Calif), and Mohammad Khan's "Kashmir's Transition to Islam" (Manohar Press). Does anyone know about any other references in either French or English besides these? I would be most grateful for assistance. Blessings to you, Nur Jemal Gale (Berkeley, CA) From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 06:59:48 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07456; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:31:39 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA11272; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:58:50 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA11262; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:58:47 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27136; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:57:54 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA09785 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.110]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 2:07:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960329065948.002ccc10@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:59:48 -0500 To: tariqas@world.std.com, wh@seas.upenn.edu From: James McCaig Subject: Emerson (a Sufi?) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: EMERSON=85=85.DIVINITY ADDRESS The intuition of the moral sentiment is an insight of the perfection of the laws of the soul. These laws execute themselves. They are out of time, out of space, and not subject to circumstance. Thus; in the soul of man there is a justice whose retributions are instant and entire. He who does a good deed, is instantly ennobled. He who does a mean deed, is by the action itself contracted. He who puts off impurity, thereby puts on purity. If a man is at heart just, then in so far is he God; the safety of God, the immortality of God, the majesty of God do enter into that man with justice. If a man dissemble, deceive, he deceives himself, and goes out of acquaintance with his own being. A man in the view of absolute goodness, adores, with total humility. Every step so downward, is a step upward. The man who renounces himself, comes to himself. KHAN Renounce the good of the world; renounce the good of heaven; renounce your highest ideal. Then renounce your renunciation. And He who looks for a reward is smaller than his reward; he who has renounced a thing has risen above it. And All things that are in a person's hold are not really his own, although for the moment he may think so; when he loses them he realizes that they were not his own. Therefore the only possible way of everlasting happiness is to realize that what one possesses is not one's own, and to renounce in time, before all that one possesses renounces one. The law of renunciation is great; and it is the only way of happiness there is. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 07:43:47 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19465; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 03:10:50 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA19387; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:44:00 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA19382; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:43:57 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11964; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:41:53 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id CAA09970 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:41:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.110]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 2:51:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960329074347.002cb9a8@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:43:47 -0500 To: tariqas@world.std.com, wh@seas.upenn.edu From: James McCaig Subject: EMERSON (CONCLUSION) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Sufi sisters and brothers, As to my initial question, was Emerson a Sufi one can only say: If it looks like a rose and smells like a rose............... Thanks and warm regards to all who have written about this little series, EMERSON.............DIVINITY ADDRESS Jesus Christ belonged to the true race of prophets. He saw with open eye the mystery of the soul. Drawn by its severe harmony, ravished with its beauty, he lived in it, and had his being there. Alone in all history, he estimated the greatness of man. One man was true to what is in you and me. He saw that God incarnates himself in man, and evermore goes forth anew to take possession of his world. He said, in this jubilee of sublime emotion, `I am divine. Through me, God acts; through me, speaks. Would you see God, see me; or, see thee, when thou also thinkest as I now think.' But what a distortion did his doctrine and memory suffer in the same, in the next, and the following ages! There is no doctrine of the Reason which will bear to be taught by the Understanding. The understanding caught this high chant from the poet's lips, and said, in the next age, `This was Jehovah come down out of heaven. I will kill you, if you say he was a man.' The idioms of his language, and the figures of his rhetoric, have usurped the place of his truth; and churches are not built on his principles, but on his tropes. Christianity became a Mythus, as the poetic teaching of Greece and of Egypt, before. He spoke of miracles; for he felt that man's life was a miracle, and all that man doth, and he knew that this daily miracle shines, as the character ascends. But the word Miracle, as pronounced by Christian churches, gives a false impression; it is Monster. It is not one with the blowing clover and the falling rain. KHAN.........SPIRITUAL LIBERTY We read in the Bible (John xiv. 3), 'I will come again and receive you unto myself,' and (Acts i. II), 'This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.' This does not refer to the person of Christ, but to the innermost being of the Master, which was in reality the Being of God. If it concerned his person he would have said, 'I shall come, but you also will come again, either in a better condition or in a worse state of being', but nothing of the kind is said. One might say, 'Why then did the Master say 'I', why did he not clearly say "God"?' The answer is that divine personality is the losing of the thought of one's limited self, the absolute merging into the divine and only personality; then the ego becomes the divine ego. The 'I' is not identification with the limited personality but with the personality of God. When Christ said I he meant God. EMERSON......DIVINITY ADDRESS I look for the hour when that supreme Beauty, which ravished the souls of those eastern men, and chiefly of those Hebrews, and through their lips spoke oracles to all time, shall speak in the West also. The Hebrew and Greek Scriptures contain immortal sentences, that have been bread of life to millions. But they have no epical integrity; are fragmentary; are not shown in their order to the intellect. I look for the new Teacher, that shall follow so far those shining laws, that he shall see them come full circle; shall see their rounding complete grace; shall see the world to be the mirror of the soul; shall see the identity of the law of gravitation with purity of heart; and shall show that the Ought, that Duty, is one thing with Science, with Beauty, and with Joy. KHAN..............THE WAY OF ILLUMINATION What is the Sufi's belief regarding the coming of a World Teacher, or, as some speak of it, the 'second coming of Christ'? The Sufi is free from beliefs and disbeliefs, and yet gives every liberty to people to have their own opinion. There is no doubt that if an individual or a multitude believe that a teacher or a reformer will come, he will surely come to them. Similarly, in the case of those who do not believe that any teacher or reformer will come, to them he will not come. To those who expect the Teacher to be a man, a man will bring the message; to those who expect the Teacher to be a woman, a woman must deliver it. To those who call on God, God comes. To those who knock at the door of Satan, Satan answers. There is an answer to every call. To a Sufi the Teacher is never absent, whether he comes in one form or in a thousand forms. He is always one to him, and the same One he recognizes to be in all, and all Teachers he sees in his one Teacher alone. For a Sufi, the self within, the self without, the kingdom of the earth, the kingdom of heaven, the whole being is his teacher, and his every moment is engaged in acquiring knowledge. For some, the Teacher has already come and gone, for others the Teacher may still come, but for a Sufi the Teacher has always been and will remain with him for ever. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 13:32:48 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19236; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:08:40 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA16713; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:32:44 -0500 Received: from weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA16686; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:32:40 -0500 Received: by weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us id IAA10805; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:32:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:32:48 -0500 (EST) From: Bob King X-Sender: bking@weaver To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: a humble request In-Reply-To: <960329001059_180662560@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks Jules and Jinavamsa for suggestions re: the book I'm trying to recover! I will trek to the library today, and I will let you know if I find a match. Meanwhile I will continue to enjoy the discussion. In gratitude, Bob King From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 02:31:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02256; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:27:39 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA14610; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 21:38:36 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA14567; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 21:38:30 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02568; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 21:31:51 -0500 Received: from i7.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u1l1K-0000lzC; Tue, 26 Mar 96 18:31 PST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 18:31 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Is my mail coming through? Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A I have sent two or three poems over the past several days and have not recieved them back which I normally do being a member on the list. The names of the poems were Wakil, Huk and Shahid. Would someone tell me if they have come through. If so how come I am not recieving them, and is that to say there is mail from tariqas which I am not recieving. Please pardon me for taking up others time with such menial administrative tasks. Thank you. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 15:01:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29425; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:08:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA28260; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:49:40 -0500 Received: from ioa.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA28254; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:49:36 -0500 From: marjan@gate.ioa.com Received: from lomax.vnet.net (lomax.vnet.net [166.82.183.128]) by ioa.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA25757 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:01:21 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:01:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199603291501.KAA25757@ioa.com> X-Sender: marjan@gate.ioa.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: a humble request Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Bob, The book you mention below sounds like "The Book of Strangers" by Ian Dallas. He is also now known as Shaykh Abdalqadir al-Murabit. From what I understand, he is from Scotland, may in fact still live there now, but did have an active group in Tucson, Arizona in the early 80's. There was also a large group, that I believe is still there, in Granada, Spain. I guess there have been some changes in the group/his teaching, and now the main community in the US is based in South Carolina. They have a business distributing contemporary and classical books on Islam. Their address is: Madina Distribution P.O.Box 22012 Charleston, S.C. 29413 I have a catalog, and it doesn't list the Ian Dallas book, but I'm pretty sure it is in print and available through regular bookstores. Anyway, I hope this helps, insha'Allah. as-salaamu 'alaykum, Na'imah >My humble request concerns the short novel. I read this book, returned >it to a library, and can't remember the title or the author. It was a >story about a professor who just sort of walks away from the life he's >known as a Western style academic, and walks into Sufism. Maybe it's okay >that this book kind of came and went in my life as a dream, but if anyone >had read this book and knows author or title I wouldn't mind being able >to pass the dream on to others! Thank you. . . > >Bob King > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 15:15:41 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06031; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:19:45 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA01664; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:07:24 -0500 Received: from severn.wash.inmet.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA01650; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:07:18 -0500 Received: by severn.wash.inmet.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA16481; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:15:41 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:15:41 -0500 From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Message-Id: <9603291515.AA16481@severn.wash.inmet.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <199603291501.KAA25757@ioa.com> (marjan@gate.ioa.com) Subject: Re: a humble request Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I have a catalog, and it doesn't list the Ian Dallas book, but I'm pretty sure it is in print and available through regular bookstores. Anyway, I hope this helps, insha'Allah. In my normal role as busybody of the world, I looked on amazon.com. There are two versions available: paperback and hardback. The hardback is $39.50, ISBN 0887069908. The paperback is $16.95, ISBN 0887069916. The publisher of both os the State University of New York Press. It is listed as a special order, so you might have better success calling the publisher directly. They may be called in Albany, NY; their mailing address is State University of New York Press, c/o CUP Services, P.O. Box 5625, Ithaca, NY 14851. They have an 800 number at 1-800-688-2877. All of this information was gathered from the web, while sitting on my behind, in about 10 minutes (mostly while I did other things). We live in a wonderous time. Remember the title: "The Book of Strangers". Of course, I have not read this. Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.inmet.com/~dlb From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 22:15:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10193; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 18:10:18 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA03071; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:18:18 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA03065; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:18:15 -0500 From: marjan@gate.ioa.com Received: from ioa.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05807; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:15:10 -0500 Received: from lomax.vnet.net (lomax.vnet.net [166.82.183.128]) by ioa.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA00846 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:15:00 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:15:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199603292215.RAA00846@ioa.com> X-Sender: marjan@gate.ioa.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: a humble request Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Bob, The book you mention below sounds like "The Book of Strangers" by Ian Dallas. He is also now known as Shaykh Abdalqadir al-Murabit. From what I understand, he is from Scotland, may in fact still live there now, but did have an active group in Tucson, Arizona in the early 80's. There was also a large group, that I believe is still there, in Granada, Spain. I guess there have been some changes in the group/his teaching, and now the main community in the US is based in South Carolina. They have a business distributing contemporary and classical books on Islam. Their address is: Madina Distribution P.O.Box 22012 Charleston, S.C. 29413 I have a catalog, and it doesn't list the Ian Dallas book, but I'm pretty sure it is in print and available through regular bookstores. Anyway, I hope this helps, insha'Allah. as-salaamu 'alaykum, Na'imah >My humble request concerns the short novel. I read this book, returned >it to a library, and can't remember the title or the author. It was a >story about a professor who just sort of walks away from the life he's >known as a Western style academic, and walks into Sufism. Maybe it's okay >that this book kind of came and went in my life as a dream, but if anyone >had read this book and knows author or title I wouldn't mind being able >to pass the dream on to others! Thank you. . . > >Bob King > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 30 00:35:30 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07923; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 20:37:14 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA19555; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 19:38:48 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA19547; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 19:38:46 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15270; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 19:35:44 -0500 Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA21632 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 19:35:30 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 19:35:30 -0500 Message-Id: <960329193530_501372308@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-03-29 15:28:04 EST, you write: >, either he or Islam is wrong. Now if both >ways lead to the same place, how can this be? > >I am very happy to be here and to know that we can help each other. > > //\ > 0-0 >+---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ >| - Zafer Barutcuoglu | >| Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | >| E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | >| URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | >| Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ >|"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | >| humble reasoning of a single individual." | >| -Galileo Galilei | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > Welcome, Zafer! wonderful to see postings from Turkey. As Nasrudin Hoca might say, "They're all right and you're right too!" What do your reasoning and heart tell you? in peace, Jinavamsa to: tariqas@europe.std.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Mar 27 01:54:13 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20370; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 05:41:45 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA08789; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:57:13 -0500 Received: from epix.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA08782; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:57:08 -0500 Received: from unknown (lwbyppp66.epix.net [199.224.69.66]) by epix.net (8.7.1/8.7) with SMTP id UAA02431 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:54:33 -0500 (EST) From: sarmad@epix.net (James Brody) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Hazrat Inayat Khan and Idries Shah (Was Re:Idries Shah) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 01:54:13 GMT Message-Id: <31589e2c.1237309@mailhost.epix.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/32.182 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Although the reference is hearsay, Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan once said to me (and I heard it) that Idries Shah's father and Hazrat Inayat Khan lived in the same neighborhood in Paris in the 1920's, and that they were great friends. Regards to all, Abraham From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 16:17:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21156; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 05:48:22 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA22360; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:22:15 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA22347; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:22:10 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26059; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:18:40 -0500 Received: from Gabriola.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u1bQr-000FmnC; Tue, 26 Mar 96 08:17 PST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 26 Mar 96 08:17 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: al Wakil Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Al Wakil What sort of vice regent, emissary, or trustee could I be? Could you imagine the angel Jabriel being called a diplomat, Who or what could represent You my Lord who has no needs. To say you are a treasure is but a sleight to You. You are You and no other with no need for a partner or co-creator. That you allow the mysteries to be revealed for the astonishment and bliss of your creation in no way makes the act of co-creation real. You my Lord are more then just the universe I have learned to be fooled by teaches who water down pretending to know Your Names each of these are just another veil. You are no object to be discerned by property or measurement. You are more than the rules of nature, there is no nature to who You are which is why You are called indescribable, which is why there is the finding. My Lord my God You are the Trustee and the jewel is always yet to be discerned and I am nothing and stand in awe. My Lord You are the Reason and I am a speck of dust your beloved waiting astonished by Your kiss which brushes against these lips out of a love which has no need. My Lord You are all and all and nothing else exists. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 21:30:26 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22194; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 05:58:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA11675; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 21:14:49 -0500 Received: from diamond.sierra.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA11664; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 21:14:45 -0500 Received: from frank (slt-d28.sierra.net) by diamond.sierra.net with SMTP id AA07035 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:32:38 -0800 Message-Id: <315861F2.2BD1@sierra.net> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:30:26 -0800 From: Frank Gaude Organization: HighSierra Online (HSO) X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Inayat's Motive References: <2.2.32.19960326201912.00302770@worldweb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum, Insh'Allah! > James McCaig wrote: > This one is easy. Quoted below from THE WAY OF ILLUMINATION by Hazrat > Inayat Khan we find some clues to Maarof's question. > > At 01:53 AM 3/27/96 +0800, maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > >Maharaj Jim said (among othe things)" > > > >--------------------------------------------------- > >"It was Khan's position, as I understand it, that > > Sufism did not exist without Islam and that Islam > > did not exist without Sufism." > >--------------------------------------------------- > "To a Sufi, revelation is the > inherent property of every soul. There is an unceasing flow of the divine > stream, which has neither beginning nor end." - Pir-O-Murshid Inayat Khan Yes, yes... this is intuition at its best... intuition, heart, Scared Heart, with its core Allah's seat. There is only one goal: Know What You Are! Then all else falls into place. It's so simple but humanity has made it so complex with all the intellectualizing, all the analyzing, all the books, all the scholars... Thy Will, not mine! Such is a key! God is the creator, and is the creation. God gets to know Self through such creation. Just what does one think "consciousness" is? Just what is matter, what is spirit? How does one come to the position of knowing? Through the heart, through intuition, through High Self, through collective High Selves, through Spirit of Guidance, through the Triune Aspects of Nature, through the only holy book, i.e., Nature! Peace, the only power, through love (islam), harmony, and beauty, tanzen of tahoe From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 15:57:10 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06786; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 06:54:11 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAB07889; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:55:28 -0500 Received: from internet.roadrunner.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA07870; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:55:24 -0500 Received: from ([206.206.168.133]) by internet.roadrunner.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA06471 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:57:10 -0700 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:57:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199603291557.IAA06471@internet.roadrunner.com> X-Sender: hakim@roadrunner.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: hakim@roadrunner.com (Hakim Archuletta) Subject: Re: a humble request X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings to you. I don't know if this is the book you refer to but it certainly is similiar and in some ways a kind of classic in contemporary sufi literature. The "Book of Strangers" by Ian Dallas is a "fiction" set in the future when civilization is in turmoil and ruin and Kasul, the keeper of the records at the great library sets out on his journey find the " book of strangers", to discover knowledge rather than information. This is a wonderful description of one man's path to an actual sufi master in North Africa who represents the Darqawi tariqa. The latter part of the book is not fiction but a description of both the shaykh and those around him and of actual events that went on in the authors search and discovery. The title comes from a Hadith, a saying of the Prophet Muhammad, Peace and Blessings be on him, in which he said that "Islam began as a strange thing and will end as a strange thing, and blessed are the strangers" This book is worth checking out for anyone interested in the path. There are several people whose lives were deeply affected by reading this book. It is still listed as being in print by SUNY Press and it has gone through several editions by different publishers since sometime in the 70's. The author is known today as Abdul Qadr Sufi or Abdul Qadr Murabit and lives and teaches in Europe. The Shaykh in the book is Muhammad Ibn Al Habib may Allah's Mercy be on him, from Morrocco whose followers are still found in great number in Morrocco, Europe and even in America. Peace, Hakim >Greetings! > >I am new to this discussion. My connections to Sufism are tenuous in a >way, but I sense a wonderful spirit in this group that would make this >tenuousness okay. My connections are these: A friend of mine was kind >enough to send me a book of poems by Rumi. I have always had a strong >connection to spinning (as a metaphor, as a cosmic or magical thing), and I >once read what I thought was a wonderful short novel that was somewhat >obliquely about Sufism. I apologize if these connections are, again, >tenuous. > >My humble request concerns the short novel. I read this book, returned >it to a library, and can't remember the title or the author. It was a >story about a professor who just sort of walks away from the life he's >known as a Western style academic, and walks into Sufism. Maybe it's okay >that this book kind of came and went in my life as a dream, but if anyone >had read this book and knows author or title I wouldn't mind being able >to pass the dream on to others! Thank you. . . > >Bob King > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 20:19:12 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08392; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 06:57:51 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA00327; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:17:33 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA00319; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:17:29 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA17988 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:17:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.178]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:25:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960326201912.00302770@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:19:12 -0500 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Inayat's Motive Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear sisters and brothers, This one is easy. Quoted below from THE WAY OF ILLUMINATION by Hazrat Inayat Khan we find some clues to Maarof's question. At 01:53 AM 3/27/96 +0800, maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: >Maharaj Jim said (among othe things)" > >--------------------------------------------------- >"It was Khan's position, as I understand it, that > Sufism did not exist without Islam and that Islam > did not exist without Sufism." >--------------------------------------------------- > >I am not very familiar with Inayat Khan. From a few >books that I read about sufism in general, I believe >Inayat Khan was a sufi, and perhaps he was given a mission >to teach Islam in the West. As a sufi, he has to "blend >with the cultural environment" and spread the message of >Islam. "Is Sufism Muslim? Is a Sufi a Mohammedan? In joining a Sufi community, is one associating with Muslims? Is a Sufi a follower of Islam? The word Islam means 'peace'; this is the Arabic word. The Hebrew word is Salem (Jerusalem). Peace and its attainment in all directions is the goal of the world. But if the following of Islam is understood to mean the obligatory adherence to a certain rite; if being a Mohammedan means conforming to certain restrictions, how can the Sufi be placed in that category, seeing that the Sufi is beyond all limitations of this kind? So far from not accepting the Qur'an, the Sufi recognizes scriptures which others disregard. But the Sufi does not follow any special book. The shining ones, such as 'Attar, Shams-e-Tabrez, Rumi, Sa'di, and Hafiz, have expressed their free thought with a complete liberty of language. To a Sufi, revelation is the inherent property of every soul. There is an unceasing flow of the divine stream, which has neither beginning nor end. What is the position of Sufism with regard to Christianity? There is a place in the Sufi understanding for all the teachings contained in that Faith, and there can be no antagonism in the mind of him who understands. The writings of the Christian mystics evidence the intensity of their pursuit and devotion to the Beloved---and there is only one Beloved. The devotion to the Sacred Heart will be found to be a link with the Sufi philosophy, which recognizes and practices it in the truest sense. Is Sufism mysticism? As green is considered to be the color of Ireland, yet it cannot be said to belong exclusively to the Irish people, for anybody can wear green, and green is found all over the world, so mystics in Islam have been called Sufis; but Sufism, divine wisdom, is for all, and is not limited to a certain people. It has existed from the first day of creation, and will continue to spread and to exist until the end of the world. Sufism is a mysticism if one wishes to be guided by it in the unfoldment of the soul. Yet it is beyond mysticism. Is Sufism theosophy? Sufis have no set belief or disbelief. Divine light is the only sustenance of their soul, and through this light they see their path clear, and what they see in this light they believe, and what they do not see they do not blindly believe. Yet they do not interfere with another person's belief or disbelief, thinking that perhaps a greater portion of light has kindled his heart, and so he sees and believes that the Sufi cannot see or believe. Or, perhaps a lesser portion of light has kept his sight dim and he cannot see and believe as the Sufi believes. Therefore Sufis leave belief and disbelief to the grade of evolution of every individual soul. The Murshid's work is to kindle the fire of the heart, and to light the torch of the soul of his mureed, and to let the mureed believe and disbelieve as he chooses, while journeying through the path of evolution. But in the end all culminates in one belief, Hurna man am, that is, 'I am all that exists'; and all other beliefs are preparatory for this final conviction, which is called Haq al-Iman in the Sufi terminology. As soon as the word 'theosophy' is taken to mean certain fixed beliefs or disbeliefs, there is a difference from Sufism. Beliefs and disbeliefs are the cause of sects, each of these being blinded from the vision of the singleness of the whole of existence. As soon as thought is restricted, it ceases to be Sufism. Is Sufism a school of thought? Wisdom is not restricted to one geographical spot such as a country, a city, a building or meetingplace. Sufism cannot be correctly described as a school of thought, if by that is meant the instruction of a certain doctrine; but it might be correct to speak of it as a school of thought in the sense that through Sufism one learns wisdom, just as in a school one learns wisdom of a certain kind. Sufism is beyond philosophy." Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Mar 26 20:19:12 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11655; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 07:01:52 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA01292; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:23:22 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA01287; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:23:19 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28146; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:17:32 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA17992 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:17:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.178]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:25:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960326201912.00302770@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:19:12 -0500 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Inayat's Motive Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear sisters and brothers, This one is easy. Quoted below from THE WAY OF ILLUMINATION by Hazrat Inayat Khan we find some clues to Maarof's question. At 01:53 AM 3/27/96 +0800, maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: >Maharaj Jim said (among othe things)" > >--------------------------------------------------- >"It was Khan's position, as I understand it, that > Sufism did not exist without Islam and that Islam > did not exist without Sufism." >--------------------------------------------------- > >I am not very familiar with Inayat Khan. From a few >books that I read about sufism in general, I believe >Inayat Khan was a sufi, and perhaps he was given a mission >to teach Islam in the West. As a sufi, he has to "blend >with the cultural environment" and spread the message of >Islam. "Is Sufism Muslim? Is a Sufi a Mohammedan? In joining a Sufi community, is one associating with Muslims? Is a Sufi a follower of Islam? The word Islam means 'peace'; this is the Arabic word. The Hebrew word is Salem (Jerusalem). Peace and its attainment in all directions is the goal of the world. But if the following of Islam is understood to mean the obligatory adherence to a certain rite; if being a Mohammedan means conforming to certain restrictions, how can the Sufi be placed in that category, seeing that the Sufi is beyond all limitations of this kind? So far from not accepting the Qur'an, the Sufi recognizes scriptures which others disregard. But the Sufi does not follow any special book. The shining ones, such as 'Attar, Shams-e-Tabrez, Rumi, Sa'di, and Hafiz, have expressed their free thought with a complete liberty of language. To a Sufi, revelation is the inherent property of every soul. There is an unceasing flow of the divine stream, which has neither beginning nor end. What is the position of Sufism with regard to Christianity? There is a place in the Sufi understanding for all the teachings contained in that Faith, and there can be no antagonism in the mind of him who understands. The writings of the Christian mystics evidence the intensity of their pursuit and devotion to the Beloved---and there is only one Beloved. The devotion to the Sacred Heart will be found to be a link with the Sufi philosophy, which recognizes and practices it in the truest sense. Is Sufism mysticism? As green is considered to be the color of Ireland, yet it cannot be said to belong exclusively to the Irish people, for anybody can wear green, and green is found all over the world, so mystics in Islam have been called Sufis; but Sufism, divine wisdom, is for all, and is not limited to a certain people. It has existed from the first day of creation, and will continue to spread and to exist until the end of the world. Sufism is a mysticism if one wishes to be guided by it in the unfoldment of the soul. Yet it is beyond mysticism. Is Sufism theosophy? Sufis have no set belief or disbelief. Divine light is the only sustenance of their soul, and through this light they see their path clear, and what they see in this light they believe, and what they do not see they do not blindly believe. Yet they do not interfere with another person's belief or disbelief, thinking that perhaps a greater portion of light has kindled his heart, and so he sees and believes that the Sufi cannot see or believe. Or, perhaps a lesser portion of light has kept his sight dim and he cannot see and believe as the Sufi believes. Therefore Sufis leave belief and disbelief to the grade of evolution of every individual soul. The Murshid's work is to kindle the fire of the heart, and to light the torch of the soul of his mureed, and to let the mureed believe and disbelieve as he chooses, while journeying through the path of evolution. But in the end all culminates in one belief, Hurna man am, that is, 'I am all that exists'; and all other beliefs are preparatory for this final conviction, which is called Haq al-Iman in the Sufi terminology. As soon as the word 'theosophy' is taken to mean certain fixed beliefs or disbeliefs, there is a difference from Sufism. Beliefs and disbeliefs are the cause of sects, each of these being blinded from the vision of the singleness of the whole of existence. As soon as thought is restricted, it ceases to be Sufism. Is Sufism a school of thought? Wisdom is not restricted to one geographical spot such as a country, a city, a building or meetingplace. Sufism cannot be correctly described as a school of thought, if by that is meant the instruction of a certain doctrine; but it might be correct to speak of it as a school of thought in the sense that through Sufism one learns wisdom, just as in a school one learns wisdom of a certain kind. Sufism is beyond philosophy." Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 30 01:21:23 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19331; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 07:42:03 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA23734; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 20:19:52 -0500 Received: from bbs.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA23724; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 20:19:48 -0500 Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by bbs.cruzio.com id aa17531; 29 Mar 96 17:19 PST X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:21:23 -0800 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: james hallam Subject: Book of Strangers Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: book of strangers...a very nice book showing the relationship between master and disciple. Also a very entertaining read. Certainly a parable of modern society and sufism today in my opinion.Synchronicty plays a part too. james hallam From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Mar 29 20:21:19 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08233; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 09:00:12 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA01427; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 15:22:23 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA01405; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 15:22:19 -0500 Received: from mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26550; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 15:18:11 -0500 Received: (from zafer@localhost) by mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA20380; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 22:21:20 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 22:21:19 +0200 (EET) From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU To: Tariqas List Subject: Re: Idries Shah Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello friends. This is the first time you hear from me, for I stayed as an observer for a while. Thanks, I wouldn't imagine such insightful discussions going on on the net. I'm from Turkey, and not a Sufi initiate in the usual sense. Turkey is a place where religion is in the monopoly of fundamentalists and those who follow them, therefore even my serious interest in Islam and Sufism caused - and still causes - great reactions in my *modern* family and friend circles. Sorry to say, but most of the 'teachers' around here are known to be very degenerate, repelling people even further from nonmaterialistic affiliations. Up to now, I continued my quest with the help of books and other friends sharing my mysical interests. Idries Shah was one of the first authors I read on Sufism. After that, he began to show up under every stone I lifted, and now I fall into a discussion on him. Well, last year my cousin was planning to marry this British guy, who, after the breakup, I learned to be a nephew of Idries Shah. Furthermore, I found out that my cousin had been to the house of Idries Shah, and met him and his relatives. I talked to her about this. She says... It was a huge mansion with ever extending gardens. There were all kinds of people from all around the world living in the house. In the day everybody worked at the gardens, collected fruits, or did what else Idries Shah would order them to do. No religious unison could be seen among the people, and no religious prohibitons were sticked to either. That bothered my sister. Although an objective and open minded person, especially Idries Shah's opinions that Islam was right in SOME ways, and that Koran had SOME truth in it, and that Mohammed was JUST a high ranking, though very high, Sufi, irritated her, and repelled her. I see a paradoxical situation here. Now, can't a person be a Sufi ,and a Msulim at the same time? Does sound like nonsense, but the basis of Islam is that denying ONE word of the Koran is the end of religion, and if Idries Shah's way is a way too, either he or Islam is wrong. Now if both ways lead to the same place, how can this be? I am very happy to be here and to know that we can help each other. //\ 0-0 +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | | humble reasoning of a single individual." | | -Galileo Galilei | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 31 22:29:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15476; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 18:14:27 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA27091; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 17:31:18 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA27086; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 17:31:15 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA24410 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 14:29:52 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id OAA05139 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 14:29:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199603312229.OAA05139@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Shah, Islam and Sufism To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 14:29:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: from "Zafer BARUTCUOGLU" at Mar 29, 96 10:21:19 pm From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3721 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 499603319 Assalam alaykum, my kin. Brother Zafer BARUTCUOGLU writes: |Idries Shah was one of the first authors I read on Sufism. Mr. Shah has a reputation among some Muslims as being overly liberal for their tastes in the least and mistaken on several accounts in his writings, especially where it concerns religions and the mystical core of all true religions *as* sufism, etc. Shah was also one of my first reads in the subject. Inspirational. I'm not sure he'd be considered 'conservative sufism', however. Usually I categorize him as merely 'sufism' in comparison to Sufism (of the religion of Islam). |...now I fall into a discussion on him. He comes up here every now and again. I've quoted him to the elist several times, along with other scary teachers such as Osho and even Aleister Crowley. I like these fellows and wanted to see how my more conservative brothers would review them. :> [relating a friend's experience] |...Idries Shah's opinions that Islam was right in SOME ways, and |that Koran had SOME truth in it, and that Mohammed was JUST a high |ranking, though very high, Sufi, I'm sure it is possible to find writings by Shah which indicate a greater degree of certainty and absoluteness than what you have said here. It seems to me his words are usually more meaningful than can be described for him. At times he implies the collective 'islam' of submitting to Allah (religion or no) while at others he speaks of the religion of Islam and its limitations. I can really see the value to this diverse approach and wonder if your commentary isn't too extreme. I'll have a look in my library again tonight or this week and see if I can find some conservative statements by him. |...can't a person be a Sufi, noun, 'soo fee'; typically of a particular mystical order associated with the religion of Islam; sometimes implies special status of awareness and/or ability; sometimes associated with spiritual purity and sometimes as well the powers conferred as byproducts; said also to be the lover of Allah, a mystical relation of some dimension reflected mostly in poetry and song (inspiring Troubadors in Romance Period of Europe); normally at least an inspired individual who partakes of the remembrance (zikr) of Allah and the testimony to his Unity and His Glory (shahadah) in the presence of a guide (sheikh); occasionally a traveller and wonderworker, serendipitous hero in adventure tales |and a [Muslim] at the same time? noun, 'muhz lim'; popularly of or related to the religious complex known as 'Islam'; sometimes associated with literal submission (and the peace it brings) to Allah; often one who upholds the 5 Pillars of Islam: prayer, tithes, pilgrimmage (to Mecca), the Double Testimony of Faith (in Allah as the One God and Muhammad as His Prophet, and the celebration of Rammadan (the month during which Muhammad received _The Qur'an_. Sometimes there is a sixth added, holy war. |Does sound like nonsense, Not at all. Check out all the possibilities. It all depends on what you choose to mean by the terms in question. I consider myself muslim (submitting of God) and a sufi (in the sense that I study the subject and wear wool :>). There are 'universalist sufis' who will accept Muslim or Buddhist or Satanist. |but the basis of Islam is that denying ONE word of the Koran is the end of |religion, This seems like a rather extreme statement to me also. Could you explain what brings you to these conclusions? Are they traditional? I do not say that you are wrong. Only that I am unused to your beliefs and so would come to understand them more clearly. Peace be with you, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 1 00:58:58 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09078; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 20:23:26 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA12388; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 19:55:54 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA12378; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 19:55:50 -0500 From: ennea@net-gate.com Received: from ns1.net-gate.com (inetgw-cwi.cwi.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26696; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 19:53:18 -0500 Received: from modem15.net-gate.com (modem15.net-gate.com [205.136.25.223]) by ns1.net-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA12569 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 19:58:58 -0500 Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 19:58:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199604010058.TAA12569@ns1.net-gate.com> X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In reading the posts on Idries Shah and his stance on Islam, a few thoughts came to mind that I would like to share. In one way that I view Sufism, though maybe it is only correct in an certain sense, all actions should only by judged by thier purpose and thier effect. The result of the action is all that matters. In my mind, I refer to this as objective action. To me, Islam seems to be an objective religion. Muhammad, p.b.u.h, created a religion that also had the function of a system of social reform. Some rules and practices were implemented that served more of a functional purpose than a spiritual purpose. As an example, I think that many forms of ablution demonstrate this. At the time of the Prophet, p.b.u.h, people would squat to defecate and so cleaning the feet was included in ablution in order to prevent disease from feces being on a person's feet. In modern times in modern countries, a person's feet are generally clean and cleaning the feet in ablution would no longer serve a purpose beyond ritual. I feel in Sufism ritual without any objective purpose is useless and is actually going against the ideal, leading us more into conditioning. Thus, orthodox Islam would no longer be perfect for all men, depending on thier time and place. The heart of Islam would be perfect, but not all the practices. This is possibly why Idries Shah speaks the way he does regarding Islam. Sincerely, Mark Fenkner From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 30 18:44:20 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21958; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 09:07:21 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA02208; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 19:28:52 -0500 Received: from weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA02191; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 19:28:48 -0500 Received: by weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us id NAA14474; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 13:44:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 13:44:20 -0500 (EST) From: Bob King X-Sender: bking@weaver To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: humble gratitude! In-Reply-To: <199603291557.IAA06471@internet.roadrunner.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Deep thanks to Hakim, Dave, Na'imah, James, Abi'l-Khayr, others for a very heartwarming and informative response to my search for a novel. _The Book of Strangers_ is most certainly the book, and I was so pleased to learn some things about the author, availability of the book, other related books, and so forth -- indeed I feel blessed! I'll now complete a kind of circle and send a copy of this book to my friend who first sent me a book of poems by Rumi. Sincere thanks!! Bob King From sybil@celtic.co.uk Mon Apr 1 16:02:04 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26355; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 11:04:37 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA10163; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 11:04:36 -0500 Received: from pugwash.celtic.co.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23794; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 11:00:57 -0500 Received: from sybil (dynamic195-hobbit.celtic.co.uk [193.122.144.195]) by pugwash.celtic.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA21827 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 16:59:55 +0100 Message-Id: <315FFDFC.3E4D@celtic.co.uk> Date: Mon, 01 Apr 1996 16:02:04 +0000 From: marc issue robinson X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: tariqas subscription Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A Hello I sent a subscription application to majordomo@world.std.com about ten days ago and recieved an automated reply which said that my application had been passed on to you for approval. Since then I've heard nothing, and I'm writing in case a mail has been lost in transit somewhere (this has happened a few times recently to my mail). Did you recieve the application? Did I pass :)? :(? rgds, marc. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 30 22:47:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03063; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 01:46:22 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA02453; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 19:29:56 -0500 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA02388; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 19:29:41 -0500 Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA05863; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 08:47:22 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 08:47:21 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Zafer BARUTCUOGLU wrote: > Hello friends. > This is the first time you hear from me, for I stayed as an observer for > a while. Thanks, I wouldn't imagine such insightful discussions going on > on the net. > I'm from Turkey, and not a Sufi initiate in the usual sense. Turkey is a > place where religion is in the monopoly of fundamentalists and those who > follow them, therefore even my serious interest in Islam and Sufism > caused - and still causes - great reactions in my *modern* family and > friend circles. Sorry to say, but most of the 'teachers' around here are > known to be very degenerate, repelling people even further from > nonmaterialistic affiliations. Maybe most are (I have no way of knowing), maybe not, but I do think there are many great Sufi shaykhs in Turkey. My own shaykh is based in Turkey. > Up to now, I continued my quest with the > help of books and other friends sharing my mysical interests. > Idries Shah was one of the first authors I read on Sufism. After that, he > began to show up under every stone I lifted, and now I fall into a > discussion on him. Many of Idries Shah's books are translations and compilations of traditional Sufi teaching materials, though also a number of his books are his own works (such as "The Sufis" and those books which consist of him answering people's questions). > Well, last year my cousin was planning to marry this British guy, who, > after the breakup, I learned to be a nephew of Idries Shah. Furthermore, > I found out that my cousin had been to the house of Idries Shah, and met > him and his relatives. I talked to her about this. She says... > It was a huge mansion with ever extending gardens. There were all kinds > of people from all around the world living in the house. In the day > everybody worked at the gardens, collected fruits, or did what else > Idries Shah would order them to do. No religious unison could be seen ?1;0c> among the people, and no religious prohibitons were sticked to either. > That bothered my sister. Although an objective and open minded person, > especially Idries Shah's opinions that Islam was right in SOME ways, and > that Koran had SOME truth in it, and that Mohammed was JUST a high > ranking, though very high, Sufi, irritated her, and repelled her. > I see a paradoxical situation here. Now, can't a person be a Sufi ,and a > Msulim at the same time? Does sound like nonsense, but the basis of Islam > is that denying ONE word of the Koran is the end of religion, and if > Idries Shah's way is a way too, either he or Islam is wrong. Now if both > ways lead to the same place, how can this be? > > I am very happy to be here and to know that we can help each other. I cannot judge Idries Shah, of course, but there if you look at the classical Sufis (who Shah himself praises, such as Jalaluddin Rumi, Ibn Arabi, and al-Ghazali), you will see that Sufism and Islam are connected (I follow the viewpoint that Sufism is the "inner dimension" of Islam). A read of some of the works of these classical authors (Rumi, ibn Arabi, al-Ghazali) will confirm this.... Idries Shah praises these people as great Sufis, so there must be more to his view, I would think, than what has been portrayed. But it isn't really my place to judge him (nor is it the place of any student). Here is what Rumi says regarding these things: The Law [Shari`ah] is like a lamp: It shows the way. Without a lamp, you will not be able to go forward. When you enter the path, your going is the Way [Tariqah]. And when you reach the goal, that is the Truth [Haqiqah]. The Law may be compared to learning the theory of medicine. The Way involves avoiding certain foods and consuming certain remedies on the basis of this theory. Then the Truth is to find everlasting health and to have no more need for theory and practice. When man dies to the life of this world, the Law and the Way will be cut off from him, and only the Truth will remain.... The Law is knowledge, the Way is works and the Truth is attainment to God. (From the Mathnawi, Book V, introduction, translated by W. C. Chittick in "The Sufi Path of Love," p. 11.) Wassalam, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 1 21:52:48 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18854; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 05:54:23 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA25047; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 02:14:28 -0500 Received: from eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA25017; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 02:14:19 -0500 From: aorsellidickson@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au Received: from stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au ([139.230.161.10]) by eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA09660 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 14:34:45 +0800 Message-Id: <199604010634.OAA09660@eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au> X-Nvlenv-01Date-Posted: 1-Apr-1996 14:38:28 -0500; at STINGRAY.ac.cowan X-Nvlenv-Content-Subject: Jabriel poems X-Nvlenv-Mts-Message-Id: 452F6031816C2979 X-Nvlenv-Notify-On-Read: allowed X-Nvlenv-Notify-On-Refusal: allowed X-Nvlipm-Non-Standard: SMF = 000Application-name: PMAIL To: tariqas%facteur.std.com@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au Subject: Jabriel poems Date: 01 Apr 96 21:52:48 GMT X-Nvlipm-Non-Standard: SMF = 000X-NetWare-UIC: AORSELLIDICKSON Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes, Jabriel, your three poems were on the net. Also, Qawi and Wakil 26 March. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 2 14:35:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20778; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 10:24:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA06420; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 09:31:15 -0500 Received: from argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA06392; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 09:31:12 -0500 Received: (from eprice@localhost) by argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA11528; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 07:35:07 -0700 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 07:35:06 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Let us remember that there is only One Teacher, and not fall into comparison. When the pupil is ready, the teacher will come. I am in gratitude there are diverse ways to find the path to truth. Ellen Price From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 2 16:18:10 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25137; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 11:56:13 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA09095; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 11:21:14 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA09085; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 11:21:11 -0500 From: informe@best.com Received: from blob.best.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23740; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 11:18:14 -0500 Received: from [204.156.129.34] (informe.vip.best.com [204.156.129.34]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA05311 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:18:10 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:18:10 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Idries Shah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >Let us remember that there is only One Teacher, and not fall into >comparison. When the pupil is ready, the teacher will come. I am in >gratitude there are diverse ways to find the path to truth. >Ellen Price As-salaam alaikum, I certainly owe a lot to Idries Shah; he introduced me to Sufism, and I found his writing style and manner so irritating that I caught myself reacting to it and was able to learn something more than I expected - which was his point, I believe. Those Mystic Soofees... Salaams, Hamza From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 2 17:08:23 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27155; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:41:06 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA20007; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:05:11 -0500 Received: from mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA19958; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:05:03 -0500 Received: (from zafer@localhost) by mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA15579; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:08:24 +0300 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:08:23 +0300 (EET DST) From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism In-Reply-To: <199604010058.TAA12569@ns1.net-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Sun, 31 Mar 1996 ennea@net-gate.com wrote: > > > In reading the posts on Idries Shah and his stance on Islam, a few thoughts > came to mind that I would like to share. In one way that I view Sufism, > though maybe it is > only correct in an certain sense, all actions should only by judged by thier > purpose and thier effect. The result of the action is all that matters. In > my mind, I > refer to this as objective action. To me, Islam seems to be an objective > religion. > Muhammad, p.b.u.h, created a religion One must choose words carefully. He did not create it. He brought it. Remember the shahadah, "And I confirm that Muhammed is a man and servant of Him." > that also had the function of a system > of social > reform. Most certainly. > Some rules and practices were implemented that served more of a > functional > purpose than a spiritual purpose. As an example, I think that many forms of > ablution > demonstrate this. At the time of the Prophet, p.b.u.h, people would squat to > defecate and so cleaning the feet was included in ablution in order to prevent > disease from feces being on a person's feet. In modern times in modern > countries, > a person's feet are generally clean and cleaning the feet in ablution would > no longer serve a purpose beyond ritual. Based on the ASSUMPTION that cleaning the feet is ONLY for hygene, your argument holds. But HOW CAN YOU BE SURE? I have also heard someone deeply learned say that the abdest(washing) serves a bioelectrical purpose crucial for the maximum emission of brain waves. How about that? Will you risk not washing? I won't. > I feel in Sufism ritual without > any objective purpose is useless and is actually going against the ideal, > leading us more into conditioning. > Thus, orthodox Islam would no longer be perfect for all men, depending on > thier time and place. The heart of Islam would be perfect, but not all the > practices. Even with the ASSUMPTION that some parts of Islam are out of time, may I ask who are we to decide where its heart is, and to amputate the parts we think unnecessary? In Islam we speak of six pillars of belief before the five pillars of Islam, these are believing in Allah, His books, His prophets, His angels, the Day of Judgement, and that He is the source of good and bad. When you refuse one word in the Book, you not only out of Islam, but also out of belief. > This is possibly why Idries Shah speaks the way he does > regarding Islam. And is this possibly why no other great Sufi of old presented such a view, and none stopped the regular practices at any point of their lives? > Sincerely, > Mark Fenkner > Regards. //\ 0-0 +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | | humble reasoning of a single individual." | | -Galileo Galilei | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 2 17:08:23 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21037; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:47:09 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA22054; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:10:53 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA22029; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:10:48 -0500 Received: from mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02451; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:05:07 -0500 Received: (from zafer@localhost) by mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA15579; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:08:24 +0300 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:08:23 +0300 (EET DST) From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism In-Reply-To: <199604010058.TAA12569@ns1.net-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 31 Mar 1996 ennea@net-gate.com wrote: > > > In reading the posts on Idries Shah and his stance on Islam, a few thoughts > came to mind that I would like to share. In one way that I view Sufism, > though maybe it is > only correct in an certain sense, all actions should only by judged by thier > purpose and thier effect. The result of the action is all that matters. In > my mind, I > refer to this as objective action. To me, Islam seems to be an objective > religion. > Muhammad, p.b.u.h, created a religion One must choose words carefully. He did not create it. He brought it. Remember the shahadah, "And I confirm that Muhammed is a man and servant of Him." > that also had the function of a system > of social > reform. Most certainly. > Some rules and practices were implemented that served more of a > functional > purpose than a spiritual purpose. As an example, I think that many forms of > ablution > demonstrate this. At the time of the Prophet, p.b.u.h, people would squat to > defecate and so cleaning the feet was included in ablution in order to prevent > disease from feces being on a person's feet. In modern times in modern > countries, > a person's feet are generally clean and cleaning the feet in ablution would > no longer serve a purpose beyond ritual. Based on the ASSUMPTION that cleaning the feet is ONLY for hygene, your argument holds. But HOW CAN YOU BE SURE? I have also heard someone deeply learned say that the abdest(washing) serves a bioelectrical purpose crucial for the maximum emission of brain waves. How about that? Will you risk not washing? I won't. > I feel in Sufism ritual without > any objective purpose is useless and is actually going against the ideal, > leading us more into conditioning. > Thus, orthodox Islam would no longer be perfect for all men, depending on > thier time and place. The heart of Islam would be perfect, but not all the > practices. Even with the ASSUMPTION that some parts of Islam are out of time, may I ask who are we to decide where its heart is, and to amputate the parts we think unnecessary? In Islam we speak of six pillars of belief before the five pillars of Islam, these are believing in Allah, His books, His prophets, His angels, the Day of Judgement, and that He is the source of good and bad. When you refuse one word in the Book, you not only out of Islam, but also out of belief. > This is possibly why Idries Shah speaks the way he does > regarding Islam. And is this possibly why no other great Sufi of old presented such a view, and none stopped the regular practices at any point of their lives? > Sincerely, > Mark Fenkner > Regards. //\ 0-0 +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | | humble reasoning of a single individual." | | -Galileo Galilei | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 2 17:15:17 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26872; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:52:13 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA03206; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:01:04 -0500 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAB03090; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:00:54 -0500 From: Hafizullah@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA18855 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:15:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:15:17 -0500 Message-Id: <960402121517_460616643@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: omburke and "Documents on contemporay dervish communities" Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-03-28 21:11:26 EST, you write: >> As a side note, I would like to ask if anyone can supply me with some >> general info >> on the Assassins. > >Mark: Greetings and blessings. Look at Peter Lamborn Wilson's book >Scandal with the essay "Secrets of the Assasins" There is also >information to be found in Corbin's "Cyclic Time and Ismaili Gnosis" and >"Temple and Contemplation" -- look under Alamat. If you read French, >look at Corbin's lectures at the Eranos Conferences in Zurich. > > There's some in (why are we not surprised?) "The Sufis" by Idries Shah From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 2 21:10:49 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25560; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 17:21:18 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA22009; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 16:16:21 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA21988; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 16:16:17 -0500 Received: from rara.ossi.com (rara-8.ossi.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06865; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 16:13:17 -0500 Received: from leiber.ossi.com (leiber.ossi.com [192.240.5.68]) by rara.ossi.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id NAA10162 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:13:16 -0800 Received: by leiber.ossi.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BB2095.D3A36F60@leiber.ossi.com>; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:10:55 -0800 Message-Id: From: Nagaraju Pappu To: "'tariqas@world.std.com'" Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufis Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:10:49 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 Encoding: 18 TEXT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Zafer: >> This is possibly why Idries Shah speaks the way he does >> regarding Islam. >And is this possibly why no other great Sufi of old presented such a >view, and none stopped the regular practices at any point of their lives? is this your ASSUMPTION or do you really know it for a fact?, i do not think that either shah or any great Sufi of old need either our defence, or our support, but to improve our own understanding, there is a beautiful report in "seeker after truth", page12, "the heritics" of Imam al Ghazali's answer to similar questions. regards nagaraj From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 2 23:19:16 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18416; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 18:53:03 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA04155; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 18:19:11 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA04150; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 18:19:08 -0500 Received: from mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28575; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 18:15:55 -0500 Received: (from zafer@localhost) by mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr (8.6.12/8.6.9) id CAA17043; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:19:17 +0300 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:19:16 +0300 (EET DST) From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: "'tariqas@world.std.com'" Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufis In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 2 Apr 1996, Nagaraju Pappu wrote: > Dear Zafer: > > >> This is possibly why Idries Shah speaks the way he does > >> regarding Islam. > > >And is this possibly why no other great Sufi of old presented such a > >view, and none stopped the regular practices at any point of their lives? > > is this your ASSUMPTION or do you really know it for a fact?, i do not > think that either shah or any great Sufi of old need either our defence, or > our support, but to improve our own understanding, there is a beautiful > report in "seeker after truth", page12, "the heritics" of Imam al Ghazali's > answer to similar questions. I am quite in accord with the Shariah - Tariqah - Hakiqah concept that Dien Alfred Rice quoted from Rumi, and I read others too, and agree that once you are where you want to be, you are no more in need of the path. Still, I didn't hear of anyone to stop the practices afterwards; maybe out of habit, maybe respect, I don't know. And that doesn't concern us either. Personally, I am still in need of the path. Yet, it won't matter for me if Shah says he doesn't need the path, or he has a better path, but if he says any part of my path is wrong, I am ready to debate. The other branch of this discussion, which is about which parts of Islam are necessary, is nothing to be discussed by believers, and nothing to be decided upon by ANYONE. Of course, if at any point in time, anybody can prove any word of the Koran wrong, I will give up my religion and views. Try it. It turns out to be one of the best ways to understand. //\ 0-0 +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | | humble reasoning of a single individual." | | -Galileo Galilei | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 2 23:19:16 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25654; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:01:16 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA15672; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 19:17:02 -0500 Received: from mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA15662; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 19:16:55 -0500 Received: (from zafer@localhost) by mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr (8.6.12/8.6.9) id CAA17043; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:19:17 +0300 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:19:16 +0300 (EET DST) From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: "'tariqas@world.std.com'" Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufis In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 2 Apr 1996, Nagaraju Pappu wrote: > Dear Zafer: > > >> This is possibly why Idries Shah speaks the way he does > >> regarding Islam. > > >And is this possibly why no other great Sufi of old presented such a > >view, and none stopped the regular practices at any point of their lives? > > is this your ASSUMPTION or do you really know it for a fact?, i do not > think that either shah or any great Sufi of old need either our defence, or > our support, but to improve our own understanding, there is a beautiful > report in "seeker after truth", page12, "the heritics" of Imam al Ghazali's > answer to similar questions. I am quite in accord with the Shariah - Tariqah - Hakiqah concept that Dien Alfred Rice quoted from Rumi, and I read others too, and agree that once you are where you want to be, you are no more in need of the path. Still, I didn't hear of anyone to stop the practices afterwards; maybe out of habit, maybe respect, I don't know. And that doesn't concern us either. Personally, I am still in need of the path. Yet, it won't matter for me if Shah says he doesn't need the path, or he has a better path, but if he says any part of my path is wrong, I am ready to debate. The other branch of this discussion, which is about which parts of Islam are necessary, is nothing to be discussed by believers, and nothing to be decided upon by ANYONE. Of course, if at any point in time, anybody can prove any word of the Koran wrong, I will give up my religion and views. Try it. It turns out to be one of the best ways to understand. //\ 0-0 +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | | humble reasoning of a single individual." | | -Galileo Galilei | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 16:31:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27140; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:54:59 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA28479; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:17:00 -0500 Received: from eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA28462; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:16:53 -0500 From: aorsellidickson@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au Received: from stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au ([139.230.161.10]) by eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA11474 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:13:55 +0800 Message-Id: <199604030113.JAA11474@eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au> X-Nvlenv-01Date-Posted: 3-Apr-1996 9:17:42 -0500; at STINGRAY.ac.cowan X-Nvlenv-Content-Subject: Easter salams X-Nvlenv-Mts-Message-Id: 95886231816C2979 X-Nvlenv-Notify-On-Read: allowed X-Nvlenv-Notify-On-Refusal: allowed X-Nvlipm-Non-Standard: SMF = 000Application-name: PMAIL To: tariqas%facteur.std.com@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au Subject: Easter salams Date: 03 Apr 96 16:31:14 GMT X-Nvlipm-Non-Standard: SMF = 000X-NetWare-UIC: AORSELLIDICKSON Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: To all kin , sisters, brothers and friends, greetings of the heart and a wish for a meaningful Easter. May we all discover the true meaning of Moses' passage through the deep waters of wordly chaos to the Sinai of personal revelation, and of Jesus' sacrifice of all negativities and wordly inclinations for the service of mankind and the glory of the King of creation. May we all be showed the way of the resurrection and rebirth of our true being. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 01:33:04 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07234; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:15:26 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA00552; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:30:02 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA00538; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:29:59 -0500 From: ennea@net-gate.com Received: from ns1.net-gate.com (inetgw-cwi.cwi.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11999; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:27:15 -0500 Received: from modem19.net-gate.com (modem19.net-gate.com [205.136.25.215]) by ns1.net-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA11485 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:33:04 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:33:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199604030133.UAA11485@ns1.net-gate.com> X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >One must choose words carefully. He did not create it. He brought it. >Remember the shahadah, "And I confirm that Muhammed is a man and servant >of Him." Thank you for the correction and reminder. >Based on the ASSUMPTION that cleaning the feet is ONLY for hygene, your >argument holds. But HOW CAN YOU BE SURE? I have also heard someone deeply >learned say that the abdest(washing) serves a bioelectrical purpose >crucial for the maximum emission of brain waves. How about that? Will you >risk not washing? I won't. I was using the cleansing of the feet as a possible example, though with this or any other example I can supply I cannot state anything absolute since my wisdom is almost nonexistence. More than anything, I am trying to demonstrate the possible reasoning on stating that some parts of Islam are beneficial, some not. But this can only be argumented by a person that had the level of being to know these things for sure. A 'real' Sufi could possibly be such a person. The one problem I often find myself facing when I considered adopting a practice or excercise is that I have no way of knowing if it is beneficial or detrimental to me. This is one realization that the writings of Idries Shah helped me arrive at. Before, I practiced the excercises of the 4th Way without much thought of if there was any possible harm in doing so. On the surface, they all seemed harmless, but when I began to question things, I realized that I had no way to determine if I was helping or harming myself. In a more immediate sense, they seemed to improve my situation in many ways but I had no way in knowing if years down the road they would have caused damage that was hard to correct. As a side note, this is a large reason why I often feel an urgency to find a teacher. >Even with the ASSUMPTION that some parts of Islam are out of time, >may I ask who are we to decide where its heart is, and to amputate the >parts we think unnecessary? In Islam we speak of six pillars of belief >before the five pillars of Islam, these are believing in Allah, His >books, His prophets, His angels, the Day of Judgement, and that He is the >source of good and bad. When you refuse one word in the Book, you not >only out of Islam, but also out of belief. As stated above, I (and most people) cannot decide what to accept and what to reject with any validity. But if a person were such a person that could decide, it does not absolutely mean that they are rejecting Islam or any of the pillars of belief. If a man in the 1950's wrote a book on the repair of cars, a man in the 1990's would not be calling the old methods incorrect just because now the old methods are no longer valid. And also, the believe in a book does not always mean believing in everything literally. If one understands the purpose and the methods of the book, it is possible to deviate outwardly without betraying anything within the book. >And is this possibly why no other great Sufi of old presented such a >view, and none stopped the regular practices at any point of their lives? I do not feel that this would be true. I cannot say anything for sure since I have not researched it in depth (nor is there any way for me to verify things), but I do remember reading in the past that there have been Sufis that have abandoned the orthodox practices of Islam after development. This is why many Sufis have been called heretics and have even been put to death for it. Thank you for you kind reponse on this topic. Please do not misunderstand me and feel any criticism towards Islam. I aspire to be a Muslim but because of certain ideas (such as mentioned above) in my psychology, I am still awaiting the final step. If any religion were perfect, at this time in the world it is surely Islam in my eyes. But the way of the Sufi seems to transcend religion and the ideas I have described are offering possible explanations. - - - - - - - - >From another post: >The other branch of this discussion, which is about which parts of Islam are >necessary, is nothing to be discussed by believers, and nothing to be >decided upon by ANYONE. 'ANYONE' is a strong generalization. This would deny many of the ideas that we have about Sufism. And why is it nothing to discuss by believers? This also seems to go against Sufism, in my understanding. >Of course, if at any point in time, anybody can prove any word of the Koran >wrong, I will give up my religion and views. Try it. It turns out to be one of >the best ways to understand. I know that in observing people (and myself at times) I have realized that we can easily set ourselves to not accept any argument and to always find a way to counter any attack so that we feel we are correct. I believe that anything can be proved with words but this also seems to go against Sufism in my understanding. This has always been the way of the scholar, not the Sufi. - - - - - - - - Sincerely, Mark Fenkner From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Mar 31 18:22:40 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08396; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:17:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA20552; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 13:43:23 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA20433; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 13:43:11 -0500 Received: from mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25133; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 13:21:13 -0500 Received: (from zafer@localhost) by mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr (8.6.12/8.6.9) id VAA06868; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 21:22:40 +0300 Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 21:22:40 +0300 (EET DST) From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU To: Tariqas List Subject: Re: Idries Shah (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I didn't see the tariqas address in the To: field of Sonia's hearty answer, so I forward it in case not everyone got it. And my warm thanks, Sonia. You understand. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 14:58:50 -0600 (CST) From: Sonia Tourk To: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU Subject: Re: Idries Shah Assalamu Alaikum, I, too, sort of lurk on tariqa net, I don't remember contributing anything for at least a couple of months. I wanted to say I empathized a great deal with the predicament with your family. Having been born a Muslim, but raised here, well there's lots of stuff to deal with - Alhamdulillah, better here than in the akhira, the next life:) Anyway, having visited Egypt where my relatives are (relatively) very educated and things, there is always this perceived struggle between modernity and traditional Islam. They think sometimes that if you become more "religious" (not that my heart is anywhere *near* clean, but more interested in religion - Qur'an/whatever) you will reject other things, or you will become closed-minded or something; Ironically then they become closed-minded about "religious" people. Of course, Ma'sha'Allah, much of the time they are still good people. I think sometimes that people just don't realize the extent to which they have been influenced by Western idealogy and values. As to the account of that "Sufi" household, Allahu Alim - God knows about that. If you read accounts of the earliest Sufis, they were renowned for their strict adherence to Shariah, Islamic law. Shariah is not some arbitrary set of rules, some penal system. It is a beautiful, wonderful gift that, Insha'Allah will help us come closer to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, as is the Qur'an ***in it's entirety*** (of course!). There are still some Sufis who are in touch with Shariah, who recognize it's place in Islam. In fact, I'd say that currently they are the only ones who are keeping it and recognizing it's importance - I say that after witnessing a bunch of Muslims, both here and overseas. True Sufis are amazing b/c they keep to the Shari'ah and understand it's function, and don't make people run away from it like in Iran or Saudi. Sometimes when I write it's a bit convuluted; if there's anything confusing, please write and Insha'Allah I can clarify:) May Allah Ta'ala support you in your quest. Peace and blessings on the Noble Prophet, his family and companions. Your sister, Sonia From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 03:56:47 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23692; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:34:33 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA02193; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 22:57:38 -0500 Received: from soho.ios.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA02188; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 22:57:27 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-40.ts-10.nyc.idt.net [169.132.99.112]) by soho.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA27392 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 22:56:47 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 22:56:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199604030356.WAA27392@soho.ios.com> X-Sender: kaleema@198.4.75.47 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: "K.Ahmad" Subject: The State We Are In Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: We are a breed apart We know how to think We know the right We know the wrong We judge others We believe this to be true We follow our hearts We use our minds We find right in we We find wrong in others We forget in them We forget is I We know how to think We have become apart from our breed With thought, Kaleem From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 04:03:07 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26060; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:41:03 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA03899; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:04:28 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA03885; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:04:25 -0500 Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10308; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:02:08 -0500 Received: from gale (m-08.IP1.SineWave.com [206.13.48.40]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA21441 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 19:54:58 -0800 Message-Id: <3161F87B.6AB7@sinewave.com> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 20:03:07 -0800 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <3161EF30.1866@sinewave.com> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 19:23:28 -0800 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In Islam we speak of six pillars of belief > before the five pillars of Islam, these are believing in Allah, His > books, His prophets, His angels, the Day of Judgement, and that He is the > source of good and bad. When you refuse one word in the Book, you not > only out of Islam, but also out of belief. > Of course, much of our dialogue on Tariqas is to bring a balance of objectivity and subjectivity through harmonious discourse on issues which may or may not reflect diverse points of view among its participants. As amoebic as history can be, given sources of information, let alone oral traditions which are not found in written texts, we do indeed grope in the dark. In the last century there was controversy over the believed discovery of two lost suras (surat al-nurwayn "Two Lights", and surat al-walaya which made explicit reference to Ali) The latter sura was discovered in a 16th century Quran in Bankipore, India. cf. St. Clair Tisdall, Muslim World, Vol.3, 1913. The former, first noted in western literature by Garcin de Tassy in 1842 (Journal Asiatique vol. 13, 1842) was embedded in the Persian Dabestan i madahib -- therefore of very doubtful authority given its Zoroastrian connection. Some of the research in early imamite studies coming out of the French school (G. Monnot, M.A. Amir-Moezzi) is producing very definite challenges to our a priori conclusions of the earliest period of Islam's development. The imams indeed frequently criticize the official sunna Quran for omission of words, and although there were different recensions at the time of the third caliph, there is general agreement in the imams's writings that the recension brought forth by Ali was quite different (said to be three times as large). Moreover, the imams's citations of suras are frequently different than in the ibn Thabit recension we are all familiar with. The sixth imam, Jafar Saddiq, also a profound khirqa-wearing Sufi and esotericist whose broadmindedness permitted Muslims to pray in Churches well after the sunna theologians and legalists forbid Muslims to do so, and who also carried on spiritual discussions with the Nestorian spirituals, was quite emphatic that the official Quran was already changed. (see, Moezzi, Le Guide Divin dans le Shi'isme Originel (Editions Verdier) One can argue the validity of these claims until one is blue in the face. I would only suggest that oral tradition (both among Persian Sufis and the inner circles of Shi'ites) has an uncanny way of preserving itself through many centuries. I have heard from my own teachers in Kashmir that they too feel the Quran was changed in the course of history -- and these dervishes have no contact with the west at all. Only God the Compassionate really knows. Nur Jemal Gale From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 09:16:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06937; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:57:59 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA13453; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:30:24 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA13417; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:30:19 -0500 Received: from juliet.logica.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00872; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:28:56 -0500 Received: by juliet.logica.com; id IAA15227; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 08:28:55 +0100 Received: from carmen.logica.co.uk(158.234.8.100) by juliet.logica.com via smap (g3.0.3) id xma015199; Wed, 3 Apr 96 08:28:28 +0100 Received: from smtpmail.logica.com (mssmtp.logica.com [158.234.8.102]) by carmen.logica.co.uk (8.7.1/8.7.Beta.10) with SMTP id IAA26656 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 08:28:53 +0100 (BST) Received: by smtpmail.logica.com with Microsoft Mail id <316244DC@smtpmail.logica.com>; Wed, 03 Apr 96 08:29:00 gmt From: Otersen Mathias To: "'tariqasmail'" Subject: Islam. Date: Wed, 03 Apr 96 09:16:00 gmt Message-Id: <316244DC@smtpmail.logica.com> Encoding: 8 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Islam existed before the Kor'an...... So how can the Kor'an be the only authority on Islam? Matthias.W.Otersen. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 07:37:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09552; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 03:14:53 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA17239; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:49:00 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA17229; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:48:57 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA08667 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:37:00 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:37:00 -0500 Message-Id: <960403023659_368220919@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufis Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-04-02 18:20:48 EST, you write: > I will give up my religion and views. >Try it. It turns out to be one of the best ways to understand. > > //\ > 0-0 >+---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ >| - Zafer Barutcuoglu hello Zafer, surely if your religion and your views lead you onwards toward harmony and love for all of God's/Allah's/Reality's creatures, it is all wondrous! in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 09:53:46 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09881; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 03:16:08 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA17376; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:51:02 -0500 Received: from mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA17370; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:50:58 -0500 Received: from sale.cscs.fi.cnr.it by mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28271; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:53:46 GMT Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:53:46 GMT Message-Id: <9604030953.AA28271@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it> X-Sender: sale@risc.idg.fi.cnr.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: sale@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (sale@cscs.fi.cnr.it) Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 >Message-ID: <3161EF30.1866@sinewave.com> >Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 19:23:28 -0800 >From: Gale >X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: tariqas@europe.std.com >Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism >References: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> In Islam we speak of six pillars of belief >> before the five pillars of Islam, these are believing in Allah, His >> books, His prophets, His angels, the Day of Judgement, and that He is the >> source of good and bad. When you refuse one word in the Book, you not >> only out of Islam, but also out of belief. >> > >Of course, much of our dialogue on Tariqas is to bring a balance of objectivity >and subjectivity through harmonious discourse on issues which may or may not >reflect diverse points of view among its participants. As amoebic as history can >be, given sources of information, let alone oral traditions which are not found >in written texts, we do indeed grope in the dark. > >In the last century there was controversy over the believed discovery of two lost >suras (surat al-nurwayn "Two Lights", and surat al-walaya which made explicit >reference to Ali) The latter sura was discovered in a 16th century Quran in >Bankipore, India. cf. St. Clair Tisdall, Muslim World, Vol.3, 1913. The >former, first noted in western literature by Garcin de Tassy in 1842 (Journal >Asiatique vol. 13, 1842) was embedded in the Persian Dabestan i madahib -- >therefore of very doubtful authority given its Zoroastrian connection. Some of >the research in early imamite studies coming out of the French school (G. >Monnot, M.A. Amir-Moezzi) is producing very definite challenges to our a priori >conclusions of the earliest period of Islam's development. The imams indeed >frequently criticize the official sunna Quran for omission of words, and although >there were different recensions at the time of the third caliph, there is general >agreement in the imams's writings that the recension brought forth by Ali was >quite different (said to be three times as large). Moreover, the imams's >citations of suras are frequently different than in the ibn Thabit recension we >are all familiar with. The sixth imam, Jafar Saddiq, also a profound >khirqa-wearing Sufi and esotericist whose broadmindedness permitted Muslims to >pray in Churches well after the sunna theologians and legalists forbid Muslims to >do so, and who also carried on spiritual discussions with the Nestorian >spirituals, was quite emphatic that the official Quran was already changed. (see, >Moezzi, Le Guide Divin dans le Shi'isme Originel (Editions Verdier) > >One can argue the validity of these claims until one is blue in the face. I would >only suggest that oral tradition (both among Persian Sufis and the inner circles >of Shi'ites) has an uncanny way of preserving itself through many centuries. I >have heard from my own teachers in Kashmir that they too feel the Quran was >changed in the course of history -- and these dervishes have no contact with the >west at all. > >Only God the Compassionate really knows. > >Nur Jemal Gale > > > Daer Brother Jemal It is impossible to change the Holy Quran for two simple reason: 1) Allah ta 'ala is his Guardian, as in Hadith of Hadrat Muhammad (PH) result if you are not agree with this word of our Lord, you can reach to refuse all Islam and at the same Time all Profets. 2) The Arabic Language has a mathematical seed in itself, the Quran is firstly a numerical and symbolic armony, any mistake and changing is esy to find for Maarifa people, as maulana Jafar Sadiq(radiallahu anhu), but there is not tradition in Sunna path school about this changement, this only an idea from some Batinya moviment. Remember the one of first fellowers of our Holy Profet Muhammad (PH) tried to change some words in Holy Quran, immediately he was been discovered, now as before 124.000 awliya ullah are chraged to preserve our world and firstly the Holy Quran until the Judjment Day. Hamza Najmuddin From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 10:09:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11498; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 03:27:06 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA19542; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 03:06:48 -0500 Received: from mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA19496; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 03:06:39 -0500 Received: from sale.cscs.fi.cnr.it by mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15219; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:09:28 GMT Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:09:28 GMT Message-Id: <9604031009.AA15219@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it> X-Sender: sale@risc.idg.fi.cnr.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: sale@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (sale@cscs.fi.cnr.it) Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > >>One must choose words carefully. He did not create it. He brought it. >>Remember the shahadah, "And I confirm that Muhammed is a man and servant >>of Him." > >Thank you for the correction and reminder. > >>Based on the ASSUMPTION that cleaning the feet is ONLY for hygene, your >>argument holds. But HOW CAN YOU BE SURE? I have also heard someone deeply >>learned say that the abdest(washing) serves a bioelectrical purpose >>crucial for the maximum emission of brain waves. How about that? Will you >>risk not washing? I won't. > >I was using the cleansing of the feet as a possible example, though with this >or any other example I can supply I cannot state anything absolute since my >wisdom is almost nonexistence. More than anything, I am trying to demonstrate >the possible reasoning on stating that some parts of Islam are beneficial, some >not. But this can only be argumented by a person that had the level of being to >know these things for sure. A 'real' Sufi could possibly be such a person. > >The one problem I often find myself facing when I considered adopting a practice >or excercise is that I have no way of knowing if it is beneficial or detrimental >to me. This is one realization that the writings of Idries Shah helped me >arrive >at. Before, I practiced the excercises of the 4th Way without much thought of >if there was any possible harm in doing so. On the surface, they all seemed >harmless, but when I began to question things, I realized that I had no way to >determine if I was helping or harming myself. In a more immediate sense, they >seemed to improve my situation in many ways but I had no way in knowing if years >down the road they would have caused damage that was hard to correct. As a side >note, this is a large reason why I often feel an urgency to find a teacher. > >>Even with the ASSUMPTION that some parts of Islam are out of time, >>may I ask who are we to decide where its heart is, and to amputate the >>parts we think unnecessary? In Islam we speak of six pillars of belief >>before the five pillars of Islam, these are believing in Allah, His >>books, His prophets, His angels, the Day of Judgement, and that He is the >>source of good and bad. When you refuse one word in the Book, you not >>only out of Islam, but also out of belief. > >As stated above, I (and most people) cannot decide what to accept and what to >reject with any validity. But if a person were such a person that could decide, >it does not absolutely mean that they are rejecting Islam or any of the pillars >of belief. If a man in the 1950's wrote a book on the repair of cars, a man in >the 1990's would not be calling the old methods incorrect just because now the >old methods are no longer valid. And also, the believe in a book does not >always >mean believing in everything literally. If one understands the purpose and the >methods of the book, it is possible to deviate outwardly without betraying >anything >within the book. > > >>And is this possibly why no other great Sufi of old presented such a >>view, and none stopped the regular practices at any point of their lives? > >I do not feel that this would be true. I cannot say anything for sure since I >have not researched it in depth (nor is there any way for me to verify things), >but I do remember reading in the past that there have been Sufis that have >abandoned the orthodox practices of Islam after development. This is why many >Sufis have been called heretics and have even been put to death for it. > >Thank you for you kind reponse on this topic. Please do not misunderstand me >and feel any criticism towards Islam. I aspire to be a Muslim but because of >certain ideas (such as mentioned above) in my psychology, I am still awaiting >the final step. If any religion were perfect, at this time in the world it is >surely Islam in my eyes. But the way of the Sufi seems to transcend religion >and the ideas I have described are offering possible explanations. > >- - - - - - - - >>From another post: > >>The other branch of this discussion, which is about which parts of Islam are >>necessary, is nothing to be discussed by believers, and nothing to be >>decided upon by ANYONE. > >'ANYONE' is a strong generalization. This would deny many of the ideas that we >have about Sufism. And why is it nothing to discuss by believers? This also >seems to go against Sufism, in my understanding. > >>Of course, if at any point in time, anybody can prove any word of the Koran >>wrong, I will give up my religion and views. Try it. It turns out to be one of >>the best ways to understand. > >I know that in observing people (and myself at times) I have realized that we >can easily set ourselves to not accept any argument and to always find a way >to counter any attack so that we feel we are correct. I believe that anything >can be proved with words but this also seems to go against Sufism in my >understanding. This has always been the way of the scholar, not the Sufi. >- - - - - - - - > >Sincerely, > >Mark Fenkner > > > Dear Mr Fenker Please remember you one of more famous teaching in Tasawwuf path. Exist in each time Awliya Ar Rahman and Awliya As Shaytan (adhubillah), thse second are easy to recognize for thier refusing of Sunna of Holy Profet Muhammad (PH) and for their hating about shari'a, Islamic commun law. If you think also thet Mr Idris Sha started his "spiritual" leading under the direction of WICCA (witchcraf association in US)is very easy to understand his really source and value. Look for a really sufi teacher between muslim Ahl al Sunna wa Al kitab, if you wont more news about my Shaeykh Maulana Ibrahim of Tariqa dusuqya contact me directly at my E-mail. Hanza Najmuddin From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 14:42:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06765; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:21:57 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA18447; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:38:10 -0500 Received: from argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA18422; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:38:06 -0500 Received: (from eprice@localhost) by argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA22641; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 07:42:01 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 07:42:00 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com, "'tariqas@world.std.com'" Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufis In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Rumi says "Practices, practices, practices." Practices include zikhir. Ellen On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Zafer BARUTCUOGLU wrote: > On Tue, 2 Apr 1996, Nagaraju Pappu wrote: > > > Dear Zafer: > > > > >> This is possibly why Idries Shah speaks the way he does > > >> regarding Islam. > > > > >And is this possibly why no other great Sufi of old presented such a > > >view, and none stopped the regular practices at any point of their lives? > > > > is this your ASSUMPTION or do you really know it for a fact?, i do not > > think that either shah or any great Sufi of old need either our defence, or > > our support, but to improve our own understanding, there is a beautiful > > report in "seeker after truth", page12, "the heritics" of Imam al Ghazali's > > answer to similar questions. > > I am quite in accord with the Shariah - Tariqah - Hakiqah concept that > Dien Alfred Rice quoted from Rumi, and I read others too, and agree that > once you are where you want to be, you are no more in need of the path. > Still, I didn't hear of anyone to stop the practices afterwards; maybe > out of habit, maybe respect, I don't know. And that doesn't concern us > either. Personally, I am still in need of the path. Yet, it won't matter > for me if Shah says he doesn't need the path, or he has a better path, > but if he says any part of my path is wrong, I am ready to debate. The > other branch of this discussion, which is about which parts of Islam are > necessary, is nothing to be discussed by believers, and nothing to be > decided upon by ANYONE. Of course, if at any point in time, anybody can > prove any word of the Koran wrong, I will give up my religion and views. > Try it. It turns out to be one of the best ways to understand. > > //\ > 0-0 > +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ > | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | > | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | > | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | > | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | > | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | > +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | > | humble reasoning of a single individual." | > | -Galileo Galilei | > +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 14:42:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07648; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:23:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA19163; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:41:20 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA19154; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:41:17 -0500 Received: from argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09243; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:38:07 -0500 Received: (from eprice@localhost) by argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA22641; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 07:42:01 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 07:42:00 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com, "'tariqas@world.std.com'" Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufis In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Rumi says "Practices, practices, practices." Practices include zikhir. Ellen On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Zafer BARUTCUOGLU wrote: > On Tue, 2 Apr 1996, Nagaraju Pappu wrote: > > > Dear Zafer: > > > > >> This is possibly why Idries Shah speaks the way he does > > >> regarding Islam. > > > > >And is this possibly why no other great Sufi of old presented such a > > >view, and none stopped the regular practices at any point of their lives? > > > > is this your ASSUMPTION or do you really know it for a fact?, i do not > > think that either shah or any great Sufi of old need either our defence, or > > our support, but to improve our own understanding, there is a beautiful > > report in "seeker after truth", page12, "the heritics" of Imam al Ghazali's > > answer to similar questions. > > I am quite in accord with the Shariah - Tariqah - Hakiqah concept that > Dien Alfred Rice quoted from Rumi, and I read others too, and agree that > once you are where you want to be, you are no more in need of the path. > Still, I didn't hear of anyone to stop the practices afterwards; maybe > out of habit, maybe respect, I don't know. And that doesn't concern us > either. Personally, I am still in need of the path. Yet, it won't matter > for me if Shah says he doesn't need the path, or he has a better path, > but if he says any part of my path is wrong, I am ready to debate. The > other branch of this discussion, which is about which parts of Islam are > necessary, is nothing to be discussed by believers, and nothing to be > decided upon by ANYONE. Of course, if at any point in time, anybody can > prove any word of the Koran wrong, I will give up my religion and views. > Try it. It turns out to be one of the best ways to understand. > > //\ > 0-0 > +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ > | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | > | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | > | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | > | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | > | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | > +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | > | humble reasoning of a single individual." | > | -Galileo Galilei | > +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 15:00:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14153; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:34:06 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA21618; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:56:50 -0500 Received: from argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA21610; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:56:47 -0500 Received: (from eprice@localhost) by argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA23200; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 08:00:43 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 08:00:42 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism In-Reply-To: <199604030133.UAA11485@ns1.net-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 2 Apr 1996 ennea@net-gate.com wrote: > > >One must choose words carefully. He did not create it. He brought it. > >Remember the shahadah, "And I confirm that Muhammed is a man and servant > >of Him." > > Thank you for the correction and reminder. > > >Based on the ASSUMPTION that cleaning the feet is ONLY for hygene, your > >argument holds. But HOW CAN YOU BE SURE? I have also heard someone deeply > >learned say that the abdest(washing) serves a bioelectrical purpose > >crucial for the maximum emission of brain waves. How about that? Will you > >risk not washing? I won't. > > I was using the cleansing of the feet as a possible example, though with this > or any other example I can supply I cannot state anything absolute since my > wisdom is almost nonexistence. More than anything, I am trying to demonstrate > the possible reasoning on stating that some parts of Islam are beneficial, some > not. But this can only be argumented by a person that had the level of being to > know these things for sure. A 'real' Sufi could possibly be such a person. > > The one problem I often find myself facing when I considered adopting a practice > or excercise is that I have no way of knowing if it is beneficial or detrimental > to me. This is one realization that the writings of Idries Shah helped me > arrive > at. Before, I practiced the excercises of the 4th Way without much thought of > if there was any possible harm in doing so. On the surface, they all seemed > harmless, but when I began to question things, I realized that I had no way to > determine if I was helping or harming myself. In a more immediate sense, they > seemed to improve my situation in many ways but I had no way in knowing if years > down the road they would have caused damage that was hard to correct. As a side > note, this is a large reason why I often feel an urgency to find a teacher. It is very important to have a living teacher as your guide. It can indeed be dangerous to try practices out of books. If nothing else you come up with some kind of stew. Beware of self-appointed teachers. A true teacher will come from a line of knowledge. A true teacher will give you the practices that are right for you to help you on your road of truth. A teacher will serve as a mirror. If you are strong enough to face what you see there, you will do whatever is necessary to polish the mirror of your heart. > > >Even with the ASSUMPTION that some parts of Islam are out of time, > >may I ask who are we to decide where its heart is, and to amputate the > >parts we think unnecessary? In Islam we speak of six pillars of belief > >before the five pillars of Islam, these are believing in Allah, His > >books, His prophets, His angels, the Day of Judgement, and that He is the > >source of good and bad. When you refuse one word in the Book, you not > >only out of Islam, but also out of belief. > > As stated above, I (and most people) cannot decide what to accept and what to > reject with any validity. But if a person were such a person that could decide, > it does not absolutely mean that they are rejecting Islam or any of the pillars > of belief. If a man in the 1950's wrote a book on the repair of cars, a man in > the 1990's would not be calling the old methods incorrect just because now the > old methods are no longer valid. And also, the believe in a book does not > always > mean believing in everything literally. If one understands the purpose and the > methods of the book, it is possible to deviate outwardly without betraying > anything > within the book. > > > >And is this possibly why no other great Sufi of old presented such a > >view, and none stopped the regular practices at any point of their lives? > > I do not feel that this would be true. I cannot say anything for sure since I > have not researched it in depth (nor is there any way for me to verify things), > but I do remember reading in the past that there have been Sufis that have > abandoned the orthodox practices of Islam after development. This is why many > Sufis have been called heretics and have even been put to death for it. > > Thank you for you kind reponse on this topic. Please do not misunderstand me > and feel any criticism towards Islam. I aspire to be a Muslim but because of > certain ideas (such as mentioned above) in my psychology, I am still awaiting > the final step. If any religion were perfect, at this time in the world it is > surely Islam in my eyes. But the way of the Sufi seems to transcend religion > and the ideas I have described are offering possible explanations. > Again I say find yourself a teacher. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. > - - - - - - - - > From another post: > > >The other branch of this discussion, which is about which parts of Islam are > >necessary, is nothing to be discussed by believers, and nothing to be > >decided upon by ANYONE. > > 'ANYONE' is a strong generalization. This would deny many of the ideas that we > have about Sufism. And why is it nothing to discuss by believers? This also > seems to go against Sufism, in my understanding. > > >Of course, if at any point in time, anybody can prove any word of the Koran > >wrong, I will give up my religion and views. Try it. It turns out to be one of > >the best ways to understand. > > I know that in observing people (and myself at times) I have realized that we > can easily set ourselves to not accept any argument and to always find a way > to counter any attack so that we feel we are correct. I believe that anything > can be proved with words but this also seems to go against Sufism in my > understanding. This has always been the way of the scholar, not the Sufi. > - - - - - - - - > > Sincerely, > > Mark Fenkner > > You might find Shah's recent book of use. I believe the title is the "Commanding Self," something like that. I'm at work now and don't have a very good memory for word. May you go in Truth, Ellen Price From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 15:00:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23131; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:48:48 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA22228; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:00:25 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA22188; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:00:18 -0500 Received: from argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20128; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:56:48 -0500 Received: (from eprice@localhost) by argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA23200; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 08:00:43 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 08:00:42 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism In-Reply-To: <199604030133.UAA11485@ns1.net-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 2 Apr 1996 ennea@net-gate.com wrote: > > >One must choose words carefully. He did not create it. He brought it. > >Remember the shahadah, "And I confirm that Muhammed is a man and servant > >of Him." > > Thank you for the correction and reminder. > > >Based on the ASSUMPTION that cleaning the feet is ONLY for hygene, your > >argument holds. But HOW CAN YOU BE SURE? I have also heard someone deeply > >learned say that the abdest(washing) serves a bioelectrical purpose > >crucial for the maximum emission of brain waves. How about that? Will you > >risk not washing? I won't. > > I was using the cleansing of the feet as a possible example, though with this > or any other example I can supply I cannot state anything absolute since my > wisdom is almost nonexistence. More than anything, I am trying to demonstrate > the possible reasoning on stating that some parts of Islam are beneficial, some > not. But this can only be argumented by a person that had the level of being to > know these things for sure. A 'real' Sufi could possibly be such a person. > > The one problem I often find myself facing when I considered adopting a practice > or excercise is that I have no way of knowing if it is beneficial or detrimental > to me. This is one realization that the writings of Idries Shah helped me > arrive > at. Before, I practiced the excercises of the 4th Way without much thought of > if there was any possible harm in doing so. On the surface, they all seemed > harmless, but when I began to question things, I realized that I had no way to > determine if I was helping or harming myself. In a more immediate sense, they > seemed to improve my situation in many ways but I had no way in knowing if years > down the road they would have caused damage that was hard to correct. As a side > note, this is a large reason why I often feel an urgency to find a teacher. It is very important to have a living teacher as your guide. It can indeed be dangerous to try practices out of books. If nothing else you come up with some kind of stew. Beware of self-appointed teachers. A true teacher will come from a line of knowledge. A true teacher will give you the practices that are right for you to help you on your road of truth. A teacher will serve as a mirror. If you are strong enough to face what you see there, you will do whatever is necessary to polish the mirror of your heart. > > >Even with the ASSUMPTION that some parts of Islam are out of time, > >may I ask who are we to decide where its heart is, and to amputate the > >parts we think unnecessary? In Islam we speak of six pillars of belief > >before the five pillars of Islam, these are believing in Allah, His > >books, His prophets, His angels, the Day of Judgement, and that He is the > >source of good and bad. When you refuse one word in the Book, you not > >only out of Islam, but also out of belief. > > As stated above, I (and most people) cannot decide what to accept and what to > reject with any validity. But if a person were such a person that could decide, > it does not absolutely mean that they are rejecting Islam or any of the pillars > of belief. If a man in the 1950's wrote a book on the repair of cars, a man in > the 1990's would not be calling the old methods incorrect just because now the > old methods are no longer valid. And also, the believe in a book does not > always > mean believing in everything literally. If one understands the purpose and the > methods of the book, it is possible to deviate outwardly without betraying > anything > within the book. > > > >And is this possibly why no other great Sufi of old presented such a > >view, and none stopped the regular practices at any point of their lives? > > I do not feel that this would be true. I cannot say anything for sure since I > have not researched it in depth (nor is there any way for me to verify things), > but I do remember reading in the past that there have been Sufis that have > abandoned the orthodox practices of Islam after development. This is why many > Sufis have been called heretics and have even been put to death for it. > > Thank you for you kind reponse on this topic. Please do not misunderstand me > and feel any criticism towards Islam. I aspire to be a Muslim but because of > certain ideas (such as mentioned above) in my psychology, I am still awaiting > the final step. If any religion were perfect, at this time in the world it is > surely Islam in my eyes. But the way of the Sufi seems to transcend religion > and the ideas I have described are offering possible explanations. > Again I say find yourself a teacher. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. > - - - - - - - - > From another post: > > >The other branch of this discussion, which is about which parts of Islam are > >necessary, is nothing to be discussed by believers, and nothing to be > >decided upon by ANYONE. > > 'ANYONE' is a strong generalization. This would deny many of the ideas that we > have about Sufism. And why is it nothing to discuss by believers? This also > seems to go against Sufism, in my understanding. > > >Of course, if at any point in time, anybody can prove any word of the Koran > >wrong, I will give up my religion and views. Try it. It turns out to be one of > >the best ways to understand. > > I know that in observing people (and myself at times) I have realized that we > can easily set ourselves to not accept any argument and to always find a way > to counter any attack so that we feel we are correct. I believe that anything > can be proved with words but this also seems to go against Sufism in my > understanding. This has always been the way of the scholar, not the Sufi. > - - - - - - - - > > Sincerely, > > Mark Fenkner > > You might find Shah's recent book of use. I believe the title is the "Commanding Self," something like that. I'm at work now and don't have a very good memory for word. May you go in Truth, Ellen Price From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 01:10:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07181; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 00:10:24 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA07941; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:31:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA07467; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:29:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA13255; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 11:10:06 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 11:10:06 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufis In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Ellen L Price wrote: > Rumi says "Practices, practices, practices." Practices include zikhir. > Ellen This reminds of me of something I read in Ibn Arabi's writings, which is essentially, never stop seeking for a higher state. Peace, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 04:30:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09133; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 00:12:45 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA07013; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:27:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA06934; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:27:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17294; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:30:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:30:28 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Forwarded Message To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:33:46 -0500 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore)] >From habib@world.std.com Mon Mar 25 13:33:43 1996 Return-Path: Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA18785; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:33:31 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29964; Mon, 25 Mar 96 10:33:19 PST Received: from kirin by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 25 Mar 96 10:33:18 PST Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA05849; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:33:22 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:33:22 -0800 From: mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore) Message-Id: <199603251833.KAA05849@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: idries shah (fwd) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Dave, > the fault in a teaching situation is far more often with the student > rather than with the teacher. For myself, I will attempt to practice > true seeking and true sincerity in that seeking. How do you do this? How can one know if one is truely seeking? I myself seem to be pretty helpless when it comes to increasing my sincerity. It seems to me a bit like Isa said: to those that have it will be given but to those that have not, even what little they have will be taken from them. The idea of a man pulling himself up by his own bootstraps does not seem to fit with this idea. So it seems that some of us are destined to 'get it' whiles other are not. If I am one that is not, then what is the point of trying. If I am one that is, then there is no need to try. Anyway, back to my question; How can one attempt to practice true seeking and true sincerity? Best Wishes, -Michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 04:40:41 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12322; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 00:19:46 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA09265; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:37:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA09185; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23095; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:40:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:40:41 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: [Fwd: FYI: VIRUS] To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 26 Mar 1996, Mike Graffam wrote: > Just a note: This "virus" warning is: > > a) a hoax. "Good Times" never existed. > b) About a year and a half or so old. c) A good object lesson. Many of us (myself included) tend to pass on hearsay as if it was truth. This lends additional credance to the fabrication. I know we are just trying to be helpful, but... Yours, Habib > > I know the original message (nor this follow up) are on-topic, > but I figure the original poster intended well, and I and posting > this in hopes that the possible scare this might cause (and thus > a barrage of on-list messages) will be avoided. > > Shalom.. > > Michael Graffam - mgraffam@mhv.net > http://www1.mhv.net/~mgraffam - Mysticism, Philosophy and Art Page > There is no escape friends, none, when the time is full - Aeschylus > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 08:03:03 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05100; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:31:42 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA29946; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:05:21 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA29940; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:05:19 -0500 (EST) From: informe@best.com Received: from blob.best.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29592; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:03:07 -0500 Received: from [204.156.129.34] (informe.vip.best.com [204.156.129.34]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id AAA07538 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 00:03:03 -0800 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 00:03:03 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >>If you think also thet Mr Idris Sha started his "spiritual" leading under >>the direction of WICCA (witchcraf association in US)is very easy to >>understand his really source and value. >> >>Hanza Najmuddin >I have never heard it mentioned before that Idries Shah began his teaching in >Wicca. Can you please tell me more about this and where you recieved this >information? I would very much like more information about your Sheikh, if you >could send me information. Where are you located? > >Mark Fenkner As-salaamu alaikum, Brother Hanza may be referring to Idries Shah's work as curator of Gerald Gardner's occult museum on the Isle of Man. Gardner had a interest in traditional Northern European pagan ritual and became a revivalist whose imitators and adherents became the "Gardnerian" pagans of today. Salaams, Hamza From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 01:50:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06277; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:38:16 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA05987; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 22:09:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA05870; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 22:08:39 -0500 (EST) From: ennea@net-gate.com Received: from ns1.net-gate.com (inetgw-cwi.cwi.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06610; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 21:38:18 -0500 Received: from modem33.net-gate.com (modem33.net-gate.com [205.136.25.187]) by ns1.net-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA06758 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 20:50:38 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 20:50:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199604040150.UAA06758@ns1.net-gate.com> X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Please remember you one of more famous teaching in Tasawwuf path. >Exist in each time Awliya Ar Rahman and Awliya As Shaytan (adhubillah), thse >second are easy to recognize for thier refusing of Sunna of Holy Profet >Muhammad (PH) and for their hating about shari'a, Islamic commun law. >If you think also thet Mr Idris Sha started his "spiritual" leading under >the direction of WICCA (witchcraf association in US)is very easy to >understand his really source and value. >Look for a really sufi teacher between muslim Ahl al Sunna wa Al kitab, if >you wont more news about my Shaeykh Maulana Ibrahim of Tariqa dusuqya >contact me directly at my E-mail. > >Hanza Najmuddin > > > I have never heard it mentioned before that Idries Shah began his teaching in Wicca. Can you please tell me more about this and where you recieved this information? I would very much like more information about your Sheikh, if you could send me information. Where are you located? Sincerely, Mark Fenkner From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 08:42:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12675; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 04:08:30 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA01903; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:43:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA01886; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06825; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:42:49 -0500 Received: from Harwood.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u4kcg-000Fp5C; Thu, 4 Apr 96 00:42 PST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 4 Apr 96 00:42 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Ismail and Issac Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I submit the following questions with the greatest respect. Does anyone have any information regarding wheather Ishmail and Issac ever got together after they grew up. Apparently they lived close enough for Abraham to visit and build the Kaba with Ishmael and still be with Issac. I believe that this is a very important issue and I have never seen it pursued either by Moslem or Jewish scholars. Further, their is a clear discrepency in the historical facts as to wheather it was Issac or Ishmail who was commanded to be sacrificed by Abraham. Both the Jewish and Christian doctrines suggest that it was Issac. Both of these doctrines are also older than the Qu'ran. As a Moslem does one by necessity declare that the Qu'ran is 100% the word of Allah as transmitted to Mohammed? Is it suggested that no letter or word has been altered by any of the Caliphs for political reasons? What was there relationship. It seems as though this was one of the only times in history whereby two prophets were living simultaneously in such close proximity. Given that both were Moslem, that is to say Jewish and intrinsically a slave to Allah there must have been some desire for them to confer with one another. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 13:17:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04360; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:52:25 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA16377; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:16:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from severn.wash.inmet.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA16368; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:16:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by severn.wash.inmet.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA11052; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:17:00 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:17:00 -0500 From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Message-Id: <9604041317.AA11052@severn.wash.inmet.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: (message from Steve H Rose on Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:30:28 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: Forwarded Message Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I *think* that Mike Moore writes: Dave, > the fault in a teaching situation is far more often with the > student rather than with the teacher. For myself, I will attempt > to practice true seeking and true sincerity in that seeking. If I plumb my memory, I *think* I am the Dave that wrote this. At any rate, I will try to respond. How do you do this? How can one know if one is truely seeking? I myself seem to be pretty helpless when it comes to increasing my sincerity. It seems to me a bit like Isa said: to those that have it will be given but to those that have not, even what little they have will be taken from them. The idea of a man pulling himself up by his own bootstraps does not seem to fit with this idea. So it seems that some of us are destined to 'get it' whiles other are not. If I am one that is not, then what is the point of trying. If I am one that is, then there is no need to try. To a great extent, I think it depends upon what you are trying to *do*. Practicing as much self-honesty as you can is a good first step. Anyway, back to my question; How can one attempt to practice true seeking and true sincerity? If I could truly answer this question, then I would be a Sufi and not a seeker on the very first steps on the journey. I can tell you how *I* attempt to practice true seeking and true sincerity, and that is all. I do so with a certain amount of trepidation; what works for one does not work for another, and it is a sign of immaturity and pride to put forth one's futile fumblings as the answer for all. So take this with a grain of salt --- even a large bag of salt. (Why am I daring to answer this at all? Hmmm......) Note also that some of this answer is placed in a Christian context, since I am answering personally and am a Christian. I hope this does not offend anyone. First of all, I try to make useful distinctions in my own reactions to things, and practice as much self-honesty as I am able in thinking about those reactions. There is a distinction between emotional intensity and spiritual significance. There is also a distinction between paying attention to someone and teaching them. I try to figure out, as much as possible, whether I am reacting emotionally to something or really detecting spiritual significance. I also try to figure out, as much as possible, whether I am craving a teacher or craving attention. I do this by comparing my reactions, again as uch as I can, to past situations where I *know*, given hindsight, that I was emotionally stirred rather than spiritually uplifted, and craving attention rather than information or teaching. I suspect most of us have these times in our past, and they can be very useful. Second, I try to suspend judgement of others as much as I can and practice judgement of myself. For example it does not (or should not) concern me if someone else is sincere in their prayer; my own sincerity should concern me. This has, if nothing else, been quite useful in removing a bunch of clutter from my mind. I don't *care* if O.J. Simpson or Mike Tyson are guilty of the crimes of which they have been accused; I am too busy dealing with my own sin to worry about theirs. Similarly, I don't *care* if homosexuality is a tremendous sin or not, or whether someone else is a homosexual. If they are and homosexuality is a sin, then they are sinners. Big deal; so am I, and I suspect my own sins are at least as bad, if not much worse (I suspect the latter). I am not tempted by homosexuality myself, do I don't worry about it. It is as much as I can do to decide what is a sin for me (what separates me from God) and act accordingly. I need not assume the burden of judging that for others. This extends to teaching, and religious practice. For example, many suspect that the leaders of what is called the "religious right" are hypocrites and self-righteous bigots. I don't know, and I don't *care*; I have enough problems with my own hypocrisy and bigotry. If a teacher attracts me, I try to be as honest with myself about *what* is attracting me as I can. Is it that he or she pays attention to me, or stimulates me emotionally? If so, what does this have to do with my spiritual growth? The answer to these questions has nothing to do with whether the teacher is true or false. If I am attracted to the True Teacher of the Age for emotional or attention need reasons, then there is nothing I can learn. If I am attracted to a false teacher for truly spiritual reasons, then the situation is self-correcting; I will either learn what the teacher has to offer and leave, or I will later find out that it was my spiritual immaturity and leave. In a nutshell; I assume the problem, if any, exists in me and not in the teacher or other person. I am usually right, and if I am wrong it is an error that will probably not be serious. I don't know if this is practicing true sincerity (in fact, I am sure it is not, given that I can only be as sincere as my commanding self allows me to be, and that is not very much); however, I hope that it will allow what little sincerity I have to do as much good as it can do. More than that I cannot do in the absence of a teacher, and a teacher has not yet been revealed to me. I hope this helps. I emphasize again that this is purely personal --- my best attempt at what works for me, in this time, in this place. I do *not* suggest anyone attempting to follow these guidelines. (Again, than why am I posting them at all? Hmmmm........) Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.inmet.com/~dlb From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 13:17:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03787; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:51:21 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA16551; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:18:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA16547; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:18:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from severn.wash.inmet.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14853; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:16:54 -0500 Received: by severn.wash.inmet.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA11052; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:17:00 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:17:00 -0500 From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Message-Id: <9604041317.AA11052@severn.wash.inmet.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: (message from Steve H Rose on Wed, 3 Apr 1996 23:30:28 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: Forwarded Message Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I *think* that Mike Moore writes: Dave, > the fault in a teaching situation is far more often with the > student rather than with the teacher. For myself, I will attempt > to practice true seeking and true sincerity in that seeking. If I plumb my memory, I *think* I am the Dave that wrote this. At any rate, I will try to respond. How do you do this? How can one know if one is truely seeking? I myself seem to be pretty helpless when it comes to increasing my sincerity. It seems to me a bit like Isa said: to those that have it will be given but to those that have not, even what little they have will be taken from them. The idea of a man pulling himself up by his own bootstraps does not seem to fit with this idea. So it seems that some of us are destined to 'get it' whiles other are not. If I am one that is not, then what is the point of trying. If I am one that is, then there is no need to try. To a great extent, I think it depends upon what you are trying to *do*. Practicing as much self-honesty as you can is a good first step. Anyway, back to my question; How can one attempt to practice true seeking and true sincerity? If I could truly answer this question, then I would be a Sufi and not a seeker on the very first steps on the journey. I can tell you how *I* attempt to practice true seeking and true sincerity, and that is all. I do so with a certain amount of trepidation; what works for one does not work for another, and it is a sign of immaturity and pride to put forth one's futile fumblings as the answer for all. So take this with a grain of salt --- even a large bag of salt. (Why am I daring to answer this at all? Hmmm......) Note also that some of this answer is placed in a Christian context, since I am answering personally and am a Christian. I hope this does not offend anyone. First of all, I try to make useful distinctions in my own reactions to things, and practice as much self-honesty as I am able in thinking about those reactions. There is a distinction between emotional intensity and spiritual significance. There is also a distinction between paying attention to someone and teaching them. I try to figure out, as much as possible, whether I am reacting emotionally to something or really detecting spiritual significance. I also try to figure out, as much as possible, whether I am craving a teacher or craving attention. I do this by comparing my reactions, again as uch as I can, to past situations where I *know*, given hindsight, that I was emotionally stirred rather than spiritually uplifted, and craving attention rather than information or teaching. I suspect most of us have these times in our past, and they can be very useful. Second, I try to suspend judgement of others as much as I can and practice judgement of myself. For example it does not (or should not) concern me if someone else is sincere in their prayer; my own sincerity should concern me. This has, if nothing else, been quite useful in removing a bunch of clutter from my mind. I don't *care* if O.J. Simpson or Mike Tyson are guilty of the crimes of which they have been accused; I am too busy dealing with my own sin to worry about theirs. Similarly, I don't *care* if homosexuality is a tremendous sin or not, or whether someone else is a homosexual. If they are and homosexuality is a sin, then they are sinners. Big deal; so am I, and I suspect my own sins are at least as bad, if not much worse (I suspect the latter). I am not tempted by homosexuality myself, do I don't worry about it. It is as much as I can do to decide what is a sin for me (what separates me from God) and act accordingly. I need not assume the burden of judging that for others. This extends to teaching, and religious practice. For example, many suspect that the leaders of what is called the "religious right" are hypocrites and self-righteous bigots. I don't know, and I don't *care*; I have enough problems with my own hypocrisy and bigotry. If a teacher attracts me, I try to be as honest with myself about *what* is attracting me as I can. Is it that he or she pays attention to me, or stimulates me emotionally? If so, what does this have to do with my spiritual growth? The answer to these questions has nothing to do with whether the teacher is true or false. If I am attracted to the True Teacher of the Age for emotional or attention need reasons, then there is nothing I can learn. If I am attracted to a false teacher for truly spiritual reasons, then the situation is self-correcting; I will either learn what the teacher has to offer and leave, or I will later find out that it was my spiritual immaturity and leave. In a nutshell; I assume the problem, if any, exists in me and not in the teacher or other person. I am usually right, and if I am wrong it is an error that will probably not be serious. I don't know if this is practicing true sincerity (in fact, I am sure it is not, given that I can only be as sincere as my commanding self allows me to be, and that is not very much); however, I hope that it will allow what little sincerity I have to do as much good as it can do. More than that I cannot do in the absence of a teacher, and a teacher has not yet been revealed to me. I hope this helps. I emphasize again that this is purely personal --- my best attempt at what works for me, in this time, in this place. I do *not* suggest anyone attempting to follow these guidelines. (Again, than why am I posting them at all? Hmmmm........) Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.inmet.com/~dlb From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 14:02:15 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29111; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:34:29 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA21084; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:01:40 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA21070; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from zafer@localhost) by mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA06755; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:02:16 +0300 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:02:15 +0300 (EET DST) From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufis In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 4 Apr 1996, Dien Alfred Rice wrote: > > > On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Ellen L Price wrote: > > > Rumi says "Practices, practices, practices." Practices include zikhir. > > Ellen > > This reminds of me of something I read in Ibn Arabi's writings, > which is essentially, never stop seeking for a higher state. > > Peace, > > Farid ud-Dien Rice > Definitely. And this is especially true in Sufism. Heaven, symbolically, is said to have eight doors, whereas Hell has seven. The seven doors are the seven senses. The five ordinary, and the two hidden senses. With all of the seven senses, you can 'see' everything, but still may be on the wrong path, to Hell. And as they say, it is easier to diverge from the true path when you see too many things. The eighth door is the door of Self. You are not where you want to be unless you are through this last door, and if anywhere on the path, you are satisfied with where you are, and stop, you will have lost. (Of course, this 'satisfaction' is a very ironical word to use.) And most people who enter the path, start off to find A good place, that is, to be above and superior to others in some way. This is relatively easy to achieve, especially through contact with evil forces, and is exactly why the guidance of a rightful teacher and/or the adherence to a SAFE religion is necessary. Regards. //\ 0-0 +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | | humble reasoning of a single individual." | | -Galileo Galilei | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 14:23:58 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13902; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:55:06 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA23622; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:23:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA23592; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from zafer@localhost) by mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA07037; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:23:59 +0300 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:23:58 +0300 (EET DST) From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Forwarded Message In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Michael wrote: > So it seems that some of us are destined > to 'get it' whiles other are not. If I am one that is not, > then what is the point of trying. If I am one that is, then > there is no need to try. The two concepts in religion that are most crucial and difficult to comprehend are God and Destiny. Many atheists are so because of bumping into one or both of these ideas. I hope we agree that God exists and is above Time. He does not exist in Time, so he knows its beginning and end and all that falls between. Now in his point of view, nothing changes in the way we sense change. Therefore, it is all 'written' in front of him. Yet in our relative frame, we don't know it, but we live it. I have my 'free' choice in my decisions and actions, and these are (mostly) what will determine my future, but being God and thus out of Time, there is nothing more natural for Him to know what decision I will make, and where this will take me. This is how I come to understand Destiny. >From another point, probably while talking to a materialist, I would have given another explanation: Taking Man as a biological system, all our decisions are the result of some electrochemical reaction in the brain, fired by the impulses of the senses, and all our actions are the outcome of those decisions. Thus, we come to accept Man as a deterministic machine, that is to say, given exactly the the same circumstances and the same records of past, a brain will make the same decision everytime. So, everything in time seems to be falling dominoes, and given the same start, the dominoes will fall exactly in the same order in every run. Here Destiny is the strict, unchanging order of those dominoes, of which our decisions and actions are each a piece. In hope of being helpful, //\ 0-0 +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | | humble reasoning of a single individual." | | -Galileo Galilei | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 14:23:58 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14407; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:55:52 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA24008; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:27:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA24004; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:27:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22978; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:23:31 -0500 Received: (from zafer@localhost) by mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA07037; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:23:59 +0300 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:23:58 +0300 (EET DST) From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Forwarded Message In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Michael wrote: > So it seems that some of us are destined > to 'get it' whiles other are not. If I am one that is not, > then what is the point of trying. If I am one that is, then > there is no need to try. The two concepts in religion that are most crucial and difficult to comprehend are God and Destiny. Many atheists are so because of bumping into one or both of these ideas. I hope we agree that God exists and is above Time. He does not exist in Time, so he knows its beginning and end and all that falls between. Now in his point of view, nothing changes in the way we sense change. Therefore, it is all 'written' in front of him. Yet in our relative frame, we don't know it, but we live it. I have my 'free' choice in my decisions and actions, and these are (mostly) what will determine my future, but being God and thus out of Time, there is nothing more natural for Him to know what decision I will make, and where this will take me. This is how I come to understand Destiny. >From another point, probably while talking to a materialist, I would have given another explanation: Taking Man as a biological system, all our decisions are the result of some electrochemical reaction in the brain, fired by the impulses of the senses, and all our actions are the outcome of those decisions. Thus, we come to accept Man as a deterministic machine, that is to say, given exactly the the same circumstances and the same records of past, a brain will make the same decision everytime. So, everything in time seems to be falling dominoes, and given the same start, the dominoes will fall exactly in the same order in every run. Here Destiny is the strict, unchanging order of those dominoes, of which our decisions and actions are each a piece. In hope of being helpful, //\ 0-0 +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | | humble reasoning of a single individual." | | -Galileo Galilei | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 14:36:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22659; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 10:06:13 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA24735; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:32:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA24731; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:32:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from eprice@localhost) by argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA01778; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 07:36:54 -0700 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 07:36:54 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Forwarded Message In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Steve H Rose wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:33:46 -0500 > From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com > To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com > Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore)] > > >From habib@world.std.com Mon Mar 25 13:33:43 1996 > Return-Path: > Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) > id NAA18785; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:33:31 -0500 > Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) > id AA29964; Mon, 25 Mar 96 10:33:19 PST > Received: from kirin > by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 25 Mar 96 10:33:18 PST > Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) > id KAA05849; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:33:22 -0800 > Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:33:22 -0800 > From: mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore) > Message-Id: <199603251833.KAA05849@kirin.Tymnet.COM> > To: tariqas@europe.std.com > Subject: Re: idries shah (fwd) > X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > > Dave, > > > the fault in a teaching situation is far more often with the student > > rather than with the teacher. For myself, I will attempt to practice > > true seeking and true sincerity in that seeking. > > How do you do this? How can one know if one is truely seeking? > I myself seem to be pretty helpless when it comes to increasing > my sincerity. It seems to me a bit like Isa said: to those that > have it will be given but to those that have not, even what > little they have will be taken from them. The idea of a man > pulling himself up by his own bootstraps does not seem to > fit with this idea. So it seems that some of us are destined > to 'get it' whiles other are not. If I am one that is not, > then what is the point of trying. If I am one that is, then > there is no need to try. > > Anyway, back to my question; How can one attempt to practice > true seeking and true sincerity? > > Best Wishes, > -Michael- > > Michael - One does not *attempt* true seek and true sincerity. It is a matter of the heart. One saying comes to mind, "Trying is lying." Another saying, "Fake it until you make it." Within your heart you must know whether you are lying to yourself. Find yourself a teacher and can serve as a mirror. Good luck with your search. - Ellen - From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 14:17:22 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26767; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 10:11:18 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA25551; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:39:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA25547; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:39:16 -0500 (EST) From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA15966 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:17:22 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:17:22 -0500 Message-Id: <960404091721_368904182@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: seeking in good company Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >>>How can one know if one is truely seeking?I myself seem to be pretty helpless when it comes to increasing my sincerity. <<< Deffinetly an archtypical question ... The advice I heard once was: increase your faith, your faith in your heart. Feel what your heart is saying, sometimes it will say such rediculous junk, but that very junk becomes one's own hand reaching out to the hand of god. As it says in the Quran: read the signs - these are the signs, this junk as well as the good stuff. Recognising what is behind one's passions is to really feel the depth of the soul, the true seeker, the one whose longing will lead you through everything high and low to get where it wants to go, where god wants to go. Increasing one's faith in the sensitivity of one's heart. Deepening this faith leads one through all the vallies that Attar mentions in the journey of the birds in his "Conferance of the Birds". It is a mess. It is healing and it is unfolding that creates the journey. And what happened to the birds at then end of thier journey? Well, the birds get to their goal of finding the great Hopoo Bird and when they enter the throne room it is empty, like maybe the wizard of Oz. But they decided to sit in that chair anyway, as long as they went all that way, "Why Not? What the heck!" And as we know, they discovered that it was they themselves whom they sought and who were king. Watching, longing, trying, it is long crazy trip, it seems, but think of all those who have faith in you, especially when you can't see them ... The one nice thing about this forum is that you realize that even though this search seems to require such a fiercly lonely thing as seeking through it all, really you aren't alone..... though sometimes when my truck drops it's transmission on the highway and I have barely a dime in the bank (which it just did) it certainly seems lonely ... so the other part of the advice was to remember the song of return that is singing in your soul (along with the whole bunch in the caravan) ... remember your brothers and sisters of the caravan and care for them and sing with them ... that is what sometimes helps me ... Asha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 14:36:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00651; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 10:16:38 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA25225; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:36:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA25218; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28454; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:33:02 -0500 Received: (from eprice@localhost) by argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA01778; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 07:36:54 -0700 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 07:36:54 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Forwarded Message In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Steve H Rose wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:33:46 -0500 > From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com > To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com > Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore)] > > >From habib@world.std.com Mon Mar 25 13:33:43 1996 > Return-Path: > Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) > id NAA18785; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:33:31 -0500 > Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) > id AA29964; Mon, 25 Mar 96 10:33:19 PST > Received: from kirin > by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 25 Mar 96 10:33:18 PST > Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) > id KAA05849; Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:33:22 -0800 > Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:33:22 -0800 > From: mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore) > Message-Id: <199603251833.KAA05849@kirin.Tymnet.COM> > To: tariqas@europe.std.com > Subject: Re: idries shah (fwd) > X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > > Dave, > > > the fault in a teaching situation is far more often with the student > > rather than with the teacher. For myself, I will attempt to practice > > true seeking and true sincerity in that seeking. > > How do you do this? How can one know if one is truely seeking? > I myself seem to be pretty helpless when it comes to increasing > my sincerity. It seems to me a bit like Isa said: to those that > have it will be given but to those that have not, even what > little they have will be taken from them. The idea of a man > pulling himself up by his own bootstraps does not seem to > fit with this idea. So it seems that some of us are destined > to 'get it' whiles other are not. If I am one that is not, > then what is the point of trying. If I am one that is, then > there is no need to try. > > Anyway, back to my question; How can one attempt to practice > true seeking and true sincerity? > > Best Wishes, > -Michael- > > Michael - One does not *attempt* true seek and true sincerity. It is a matter of the heart. One saying comes to mind, "Trying is lying." Another saying, "Fake it until you make it." Within your heart you must know whether you are lying to yourself. Find yourself a teacher and can serve as a mirror. Good luck with your search. - Ellen - From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 17:07:48 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00951; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:16:46 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA16713; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:16:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23402; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:08:01 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA15411; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:07:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:07:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199604041707.MAA15411@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore)] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Thu Apr 4 12:07:42 1996 Return-Path: Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA15366; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:07:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07197; Thu, 4 Apr 96 09:07:37 PST Received: from kirin by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 4 Apr 96 9:07:36 PST Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA14187; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:07:42 -0800 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:07:42 -0800 From: mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore) Message-Id: <199604041707.JAA14187@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: DB's reply to MM X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > I *think* that Mike Moore writes: > > Dave, > > > the fault in a teaching situation is far more often with the > > student rather than with the teacher. For myself, I will attempt > > to practice true seeking and true sincerity in that seeking. > > If I plumb my memory, I *think* I am the Dave that wrote this. At any > rate, I will try to respond. > > How do you do this? How can one know if one is truely seeking? I > myself seem to be pretty helpless when it comes to increasing my > sincerity. It seems to me a bit like Isa said: to those that have > it will be given but to those that have not, even what little they > have will be taken from them. The idea of a man pulling himself up > by his own bootstraps does not seem to fit with this idea. So it > seems that some of us are destined to 'get it' whiles other are > not. If I am one that is not, then what is the point of trying. If > I am one that is, then there is no need to try. > > To a great extent, I think it depends upon what you are trying to > *do*. Practicing as much self-honesty as you can is a good first > step. We say 'I' am trying to 'do' such-n-such. Immediately we are talking jibberish. Something we call 'I' ( which is not real ), has some false notion that it can 'do'. We know that these are lies, and yet these two great pillars support this dunya, this maya, this illusion. There is nothing we should do; there is nobody to do it; there is no doing. There is only One, but without two, One cannot exist, so there is nothing. There are many, and there is One and there is void. Meanwhile, 'I' have work to 'DO'. Cheers, -Michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 16:59:19 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16633; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:42:08 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA14584; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:01:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from rara.ossi.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA14558; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:01:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from leiber.ossi.com (leiber.ossi.com [192.240.5.68]) by rara.ossi.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA14616 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:01:45 -0800 Received: by leiber.ossi.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BB2205.06AA1010@leiber.ossi.com>; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:59:26 -0800 Message-Id: From: Nagaraju Pappu To: "'tariqas@europe.std.com'" Cc: "'tariqas@world.std.com'" Subject: RE: Forwarded Message Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:59:19 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 Encoding: 12 TEXT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > >>Anyway, back to my question; How can one attempt to practice >>true seeking and true sincerity? faith in GOD, service, humility and with all these, be a viable unit in the society - that's what i was told by learned men. regards nagaraj > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 16:59:19 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19023; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:44:51 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA15354; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:07:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA15328; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from rara.ossi.com (rara-8.ossi.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18976; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:01:50 -0500 Received: from leiber.ossi.com (leiber.ossi.com [192.240.5.68]) by rara.ossi.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA14619 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:01:45 -0800 Received: by leiber.ossi.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BB2205.06AA1010@leiber.ossi.com>; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:59:26 -0800 Message-Id: From: Nagaraju Pappu To: "'tariqas@europe.std.com'" Cc: "'tariqas@world.std.com'" Subject: RE: Forwarded Message Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:59:19 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 Encoding: 12 TEXT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > >>Anyway, back to my question; How can one attempt to practice >>true seeking and true sincerity? faith in GOD, service, humility and with all these, be a viable unit in the society - that's what i was told by learned men. regards nagaraj > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 17:50:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27207; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:57:25 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA21169; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23388; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:50:50 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA20582; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:50:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:50:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199604041750.MAA20582@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore)] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Thu Apr 4 12:50:27 1996 Return-Path: Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA20510; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:49:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09337; Thu, 4 Apr 96 09:49:29 PST Received: from kirin by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 4 Apr 96 9:49:29 PST Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA14243; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:49:36 -0800 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:49:36 -0800 From: mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore) Message-Id: <199604041749.JAA14243@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: Forwarded Message X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > > On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Michael wrote: > > > > So it seems that some of us are destined > > to 'get it' whiles other are not. If I am one that is not, > > then what is the point of trying. If I am one that is, then > > there is no need to try. > > The two concepts in religion that are most crucial and difficult to > comprehend are God and Destiny. Many atheists are so because of bumping > into one or both of these ideas. > I hope we agree that God exists and is above Time. He does not exist in > Time, so he knows its beginning and end and all that falls between. Now > in his point of view, nothing changes in the way we sense change. > Therefore, it is all 'written' in front of him. Yet in our relative > frame, we don't know it, but we live it. I have my 'free' choice in my > decisions and actions, and these are (mostly) what will determine my > future, but being God and thus out of Time, there is nothing more natural > for Him to know what decision I will make, and where this will take me. > This is how I come to understand Destiny. > From another point, probably while talking to a materialist, I would have > given another explanation: Taking Man as a biological system, all our > decisions are the result of some electrochemical reaction in the brain, > fired by the impulses of the senses, and all our actions are the outcome > of those decisions. Thus, we come to accept Man as a deterministic > machine, that is to say, given exactly the the same circumstances and the > same records of past, a brain will make the same decision everytime. So, > everything in time seems to be falling dominoes, and given the same > start, the dominoes will fall exactly in the same order in every run. > Here Destiny is the strict, unchanging order of those dominoes, of which > our decisions and actions are each a piece. > | > | -Galileo Galilei | > +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ It seems to me that you are trying to have it both ways. That is, TWO realities. Two truths. Logically, both cannot be true because by definition, the idea of free-will opposes determinism. In math, If A is true, and B = A and C not= B, then C not true. Where B is not-free-will and A is free-will. Now, if we want to move beyond logic then fine, but in that case we must stop talking about ideas that are logical constructs such as free-will and determinism. My own belief, for what it is worth, is that these ideas are nonsence drempt up by philosophers who had to justify the fact that they were sitting around in some shady library while others were out in the hot sun harvesting grapes. ;-) As for this leading to atheism or being the basis for atheism I would say only in the minds of those with some false notion of God - and that any notion of God held in the mind is false. and As for God existing, who can say what existence is? We say God exists or God does not exist, this is all just mental flatulence. Anyway, I've got grapes to pick so take care.. -Michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 4 23:16:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05235; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:06:38 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA27961; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 18:55:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA27912; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 18:55:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21693; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 18:17:08 -0500 Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA07610; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:16:54 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:16:54 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Forwarded Message In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > From: mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore) > So it seems that some of us are destined > to 'get it' whiles other are not. If I am one that is not, > then what is the point of trying. If I am one that is, then > there is no need to try. I can only say what I think has helped me.... What I have tried to practice is: be honest with yourself pray to God for guidance follow where your heart leads you Peace, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 1 16:30:43 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06114; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 01:41:56 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA17216; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 14:15:08 -0500 Received: from homer07.u.washington.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA17037; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 14:14:38 -0500 Received: from localhost by homer07.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.03/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA128231; Mon, 1 Apr 96 08:30:43 -0800 Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 08:30:43 -0800 (PST) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: wudu In-Reply-To: <199604010634.OAA09660@eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum > purpose than a spiritual purpose. As an example, I think that many forms of > ablution > demonstrate this. At the time of the Prophet, p.b.u.h, people would squat to > defecate and so cleaning the feet was included in ablution in order to prevent > disease from feces being on a person's feet. In modern times in modern > countries, > a person's feet are generally clean and cleaning the feet in ablution would > no longer serve a purpose beyond ritual. I feel in Sufism ritual without > any objective purpose is useless and is actually going against the ideal, > leading us more into conditioning. > Following the same reasoning, one would have to stand on one's head while defecating in order to justify the previous steps of ablution. Clearly, there is more to wudu than what you have implied. How can we learn of the meaning unless we let go of our assumptions and sit at the feet of one who really knows? Perhaps the conditioning we must overcome is our unwillingness to do this. Lily From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 1 14:34:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06869; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 01:46:22 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA03622; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 09:39:40 -0500 Received: from helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA03571; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 09:39:31 -0500 Received: (from eprice@localhost) by helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA20519; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 07:34:42 -0700 Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 07:34:42 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism In-Reply-To: <199604010058.TAA12569@ns1.net-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Re: ablutions The purpose of cleaning the feet is more than ritual if you take into consideration that every organ of the body has a center in the foot (i.e. look at reflexology). The ablutions are for more than physical cleanliness. Ellen Price On Sun, 31 Mar 1996 ennea@net-gate.com wrote: > > > In reading the posts on Idries Shah and his stance on Islam, a few thoughts > came to mind that I would like to share. In one way that I view Sufism, > though maybe it is > only correct in an certain sense, all actions should only by judged by thier > purpose and thier effect. The result of the action is all that matters. In > my mind, I > refer to this as objective action. To me, Islam seems to be an objective > religion. > Muhammad, p.b.u.h, created a religion that also had the function of a system > of social > reform. Some rules and practices were implemented that served more of a > functional > purpose than a spiritual purpose. As an example, I think that many forms of > ablution > demonstrate this. At the time of the Prophet, p.b.u.h, people would squat to > defecate and so cleaning the feet was included in ablution in order to prevent > disease from feces being on a person's feet. In modern times in modern > countries, > a person's feet are generally clean and cleaning the feet in ablution would > no longer serve a purpose beyond ritual. I feel in Sufism ritual without > any objective purpose is useless and is actually going against the ideal, > leading us more into conditioning. > Thus, orthodox Islam would no longer be perfect for all men, depending on > thier time and place. The heart of Islam would be perfect, but not all the > practices. This is possibly why Idries Shah speaks the way he does > regarding Islam. > > Sincerely, > Mark Fenkner > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 1 14:34:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08236; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 01:54:16 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA04280; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 09:43:16 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA04268; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 09:43:12 -0500 Received: from helium.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27356; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 09:39:35 -0500 Received: (from eprice@localhost) by helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA20519; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 07:34:42 -0700 Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 07:34:42 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism In-Reply-To: <199604010058.TAA12569@ns1.net-gate.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Re: ablutions The purpose of cleaning the feet is more than ritual if you take into consideration that every organ of the body has a center in the foot (i.e. look at reflexology). The ablutions are for more than physical cleanliness. Ellen Price On Sun, 31 Mar 1996 ennea@net-gate.com wrote: > > > In reading the posts on Idries Shah and his stance on Islam, a few thoughts > came to mind that I would like to share. In one way that I view Sufism, > though maybe it is > only correct in an certain sense, all actions should only by judged by thier > purpose and thier effect. The result of the action is all that matters. In > my mind, I > refer to this as objective action. To me, Islam seems to be an objective > religion. > Muhammad, p.b.u.h, created a religion that also had the function of a system > of social > reform. Some rules and practices were implemented that served more of a > functional > purpose than a spiritual purpose. As an example, I think that many forms of > ablution > demonstrate this. At the time of the Prophet, p.b.u.h, people would squat to > defecate and so cleaning the feet was included in ablution in order to prevent > disease from feces being on a person's feet. In modern times in modern > countries, > a person's feet are generally clean and cleaning the feet in ablution would > no longer serve a purpose beyond ritual. I feel in Sufism ritual without > any objective purpose is useless and is actually going against the ideal, > leading us more into conditioning. > Thus, orthodox Islam would no longer be perfect for all men, depending on > thier time and place. The heart of Islam would be perfect, but not all the > practices. This is possibly why Idries Shah speaks the way he does > regarding Islam. > > Sincerely, > Mark Fenkner > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 19:53:07 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17545; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 02:46:26 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA13687; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 15:12:02 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA13301; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 15:10:55 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29648; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:53:08 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:53:07 -0500 (EST) From: arsalaan fay Subject: double posting To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A I am experienceing a greaty deal of double posting. Could the moderator please explain how to avoid this? Thank You Arsalaan From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 1 20:21:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20041; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 02:58:10 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA08423; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 15:18:30 -0500 Received: from mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA08381; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 15:18:21 -0500 Received: (from zafer@localhost) by mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA11579; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 23:21:26 +0300 Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 23:21:25 +0300 (EET DST) From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism In-Reply-To: <199603312229.OAA05139@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 31 Mar 1996, Haramullah wrote: > Assalam alaykum, my kin. > Brother Zafer BARUTCUOGLU writes: > |Idries Shah was one of the first authors I read on Sufism. > > Mr. Shah has a reputation among some Muslims as being overly liberal > for their tastes in the least and mistaken on several accounts in > his writings, especially where it concerns religions and the mystical > core of all true religions *as* sufism, etc. > > Shah was also one of my first reads in the subject. Inspirational. > I'm not sure he'd be considered 'conservative sufism', however. > Usually I categorize him as merely 'sufism' in comparison to Sufism > (of the religion of Islam). > > > |...now I fall into a discussion on him. > > He comes up here every now and again. I've quoted him to the elist > several times, along with other scary teachers such as Osho and > even Aleister Crowley. I like these fellows and wanted to see how > my more conservative brothers would review them. :> > > > [relating a friend's experience] > |...Idries Shah's opinions that Islam was right in SOME ways, and > |that Koran had SOME truth in it, and that Mohammed was JUST a high > |ranking, though very high, Sufi, > > I'm sure it is possible to find writings by Shah which indicate > a greater degree of certainty and absoluteness than what you have > said here. It seems to me his words are usually more meaningful > than can be described for him. At times he implies the collective > 'islam' of submitting to Allah (religion or no) while at others he > speaks of the religion of Islam and its limitations. I can really > see the value to this diverse approach and wonder if your commentary > isn't too extreme. I'll have a look in my library again tonight or > this week and see if I can find some conservative statements by him. > > > |...can't a person be a Sufi, > > noun, 'soo fee'; typically of a particular mystical order associated > with the religion of Islam; sometimes implies special status of > awareness and/or ability; sometimes associated with spiritual purity > and sometimes as well the powers conferred as byproducts; said also > to be the lover of Allah, a mystical relation of some dimension > reflected mostly in poetry and song (inspiring Troubadors in Romance > Period of Europe); normally at least an inspired individual who partakes > of the remembrance (zikr) of Allah and the testimony to his Unity and > His Glory (shahadah) in the presence of a guide (sheikh); occasionally > a traveller and wonderworker, serendipitous hero in adventure tales > > > |and a [Muslim] at the same time? > > noun, 'muhz lim'; popularly of or related to the religious complex known > as 'Islam'; sometimes associated with literal submission (and the peace > it brings) to Allah; often one who upholds the 5 Pillars of Islam: prayer, > tithes, pilgrimmage (to Mecca), the Double Testimony of Faith (in Allah > as the One God and Muhammad as His Prophet, and the celebration of Rammadan > (the month during which Muhammad received _The Qur'an_. Sometimes there > is a sixth added, holy war. I had never heard the sixth accounted as a pillar.. Very subject to abuse. > > > |Does sound like nonsense, > > Not at all. Check out all the possibilities. It all depends on what you > choose to mean by the terms in question. I consider myself muslim (submitting > of God) and a sufi (in the sense that I study the subject and wear wool :>). > There are 'universalist sufis' who will accept Muslim or Buddhist or Satanist. I fully agree on the Buddhist, but Satanist??? That is far out to be a way to love God, I guess. I mean, I understand Shah's views that the idol worshipper sees God in the idol, but Satanism is nothing to compare even with such a case. > > > |but the basis of Islam is that denying ONE word of the Koran is the end of > |religion, > > This seems like a rather extreme statement to me also. Could you explain > what brings you to these conclusions? Are they traditional? I do not say > that you are wrong. Only that I am unused to your beliefs and so would come > to understand them more clearly. I realize it sounds traditional, but I get this impresson- or rather expression- from the Koran itself. I confess that I don't know the Koran thoroughly enough to immediately quote suitable phrases, but will shortly give specific ctatements. Most of them are in the form of saying that there were some people who accept(ed) only part of Koran/His Word and that they are in great sin. And I don't remember any ancient Sufi to point out anything wrong in the Book, if there's anyone who does, I am ready to argue on any word. And I have little access to anything else about Shah currently, so I am restlessly waiting for your quotes of him. > Peace be with you, my kin. > > Haramullah > tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com > Peace be with you brother. //\ 0-0 +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | | humble reasoning of a single individual." | | -Galileo Galilei | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 19:22:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21005; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 03:03:48 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA13110; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 15:10:29 -0500 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA12596; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 15:09:13 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA15126 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:22:50 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:22:50 -0500 Message-Id: <960403142249_263174162@mail04> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: True Teachers [was Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello all, I have been following this thread on Idries Shah. One small group of questions from something that was said here as quoted below: Is this idea of a true teacher one that is followed throughout the world of the Sufis? What of the Uwaisiyyah Order teachers? Who was the teacher of Mohammed? Is the Buddha considered not to be a true teacher because he had no teacher and was a self-appointed teacher? I ask this questions respectfully, as is most befitting this group, almost all of whose postings show mutual respect for the positions of searching of others. in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-04-03 09:59:30 EST, you write: > It is very important to have a living teacher as your guide. It can >indeed be dangerous to try practices out of books. If nothing else you >come up with some kind of stew. Beware of self-appointed teachers. A true >teacher will come from a line of knowledge. A true teacher will give you >the practices that are right for you to help you on your road of truth. A >teacher will serve as a mirror. If you are strong enough to face what >you see there, you will do whatever is necessary to polish the mirror of >your heart. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 1 20:21:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21630; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 03:07:34 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA12790; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 15:47:29 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA12767; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 15:47:25 -0500 Received: from mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21994; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 15:18:58 -0500 Received: (from zafer@localhost) by mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA11579; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 23:21:26 +0300 Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 23:21:25 +0300 (EET DST) From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism In-Reply-To: <199603312229.OAA05139@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 31 Mar 1996, Haramullah wrote: > Assalam alaykum, my kin. > Brother Zafer BARUTCUOGLU writes: > |Idries Shah was one of the first authors I read on Sufism. > > Mr. Shah has a reputation among some Muslims as being overly liberal > for their tastes in the least and mistaken on several accounts in > his writings, especially where it concerns religions and the mystical > core of all true religions *as* sufism, etc. > > Shah was also one of my first reads in the subject. Inspirational. > I'm not sure he'd be considered 'conservative sufism', however. > Usually I categorize him as merely 'sufism' in comparison to Sufism > (of the religion of Islam). > > > |...now I fall into a discussion on him. > > He comes up here every now and again. I've quoted him to the elist > several times, along with other scary teachers such as Osho and > even Aleister Crowley. I like these fellows and wanted to see how > my more conservative brothers would review them. :> > > > [relating a friend's experience] > |...Idries Shah's opinions that Islam was right in SOME ways, and > |that Koran had SOME truth in it, and that Mohammed was JUST a high > |ranking, though very high, Sufi, > > I'm sure it is possible to find writings by Shah which indicate > a greater degree of certainty and absoluteness than what you have > said here. It seems to me his words are usually more meaningful > than can be described for him. At times he implies the collective > 'islam' of submitting to Allah (religion or no) while at others he > speaks of the religion of Islam and its limitations. I can really > see the value to this diverse approach and wonder if your commentary > isn't too extreme. I'll have a look in my library again tonight or > this week and see if I can find some conservative statements by him. > > > |...can't a person be a Sufi, > > noun, 'soo fee'; typically of a particular mystical order associated > with the religion of Islam; sometimes implies special status of > awareness and/or ability; sometimes associated with spiritual purity > and sometimes as well the powers conferred as byproducts; said also > to be the lover of Allah, a mystical relation of some dimension > reflected mostly in poetry and song (inspiring Troubadors in Romance > Period of Europe); normally at least an inspired individual who partakes > of the remembrance (zikr) of Allah and the testimony to his Unity and > His Glory (shahadah) in the presence of a guide (sheikh); occasionally > a traveller and wonderworker, serendipitous hero in adventure tales > > > |and a [Muslim] at the same time? > > noun, 'muhz lim'; popularly of or related to the religious complex known > as 'Islam'; sometimes associated with literal submission (and the peace > it brings) to Allah; often one who upholds the 5 Pillars of Islam: prayer, > tithes, pilgrimmage (to Mecca), the Double Testimony of Faith (in Allah > as the One God and Muhammad as His Prophet, and the celebration of Rammadan > (the month during which Muhammad received _The Qur'an_. Sometimes there > is a sixth added, holy war. I had never heard the sixth accounted as a pillar.. Very subject to abuse. > > > |Does sound like nonsense, > > Not at all. Check out all the possibilities. It all depends on what you > choose to mean by the terms in question. I consider myself muslim (submitting > of God) and a sufi (in the sense that I study the subject and wear wool :>). > There are 'universalist sufis' who will accept Muslim or Buddhist or Satanist. I fully agree on the Buddhist, but Satanist??? That is far out to be a way to love God, I guess. I mean, I understand Shah's views that the idol worshipper sees God in the idol, but Satanism is nothing to compare even with such a case. > > > |but the basis of Islam is that denying ONE word of the Koran is the end of > |religion, > > This seems like a rather extreme statement to me also. Could you explain > what brings you to these conclusions? Are they traditional? I do not say > that you are wrong. Only that I am unused to your beliefs and so would come > to understand them more clearly. I realize it sounds traditional, but I get this impresson- or rather expression- from the Koran itself. I confess that I don't know the Koran thoroughly enough to immediately quote suitable phrases, but will shortly give specific ctatements. Most of them are in the form of saying that there were some people who accept(ed) only part of Koran/His Word and that they are in great sin. And I don't remember any ancient Sufi to point out anything wrong in the Book, if there's anyone who does, I am ready to argue on any word. And I have little access to anything else about Shah currently, so I am restlessly waiting for your quotes of him. > Peace be with you, my kin. > > Haramullah > tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com > Peace be with you brother. //\ 0-0 +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | | humble reasoning of a single individual." | | -Galileo Galilei | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 3 03:23:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com (europe-e.std.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29133; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 03:35:39 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA24644; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 22:22:35 -0500 Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA24628; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 22:22:30 -0500 Received: from gale (m-12.IP1.SineWave.com [206.13.48.44]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA21256 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 19:15:19 -0800 Message-Id: <3161EF30.1866@sinewave.com> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 19:23:28 -0800 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > In Islam we speak of six pillars of belief > before the five pillars of Islam, these are believing in Allah, His > books, His prophets, His angels, the Day of Judgement, and that He is the > source of good and bad. When you refuse one word in the Book, you not > only out of Islam, but also out of belief. > Of course, much of our dialogue on Tariqas is to bring a balance of objectivity and subjectivity through harmonious discourse on issues which may or may not reflect diverse points of view among its participants. As amoebic as history can be, given sources of information, let alone oral traditions which are not found in written texts, we do indeed grope in the dark. In the last century there was controversy over the believed discovery of two lost suras (surat al-nurwayn "Two Lights", and surat al-walaya which made explicit reference to Ali) The latter sura was discovered in a 16th century Quran in Bankipore, India. cf. St. Clair Tisdall, Muslim World, Vol.3, 1913. The former, first noted in western literature by Garcin de Tassy in 1842 (Journal Asiatique vol. 13, 1842) was embedded in the Persian Dabestan i madahib -- therefore of very doubtful authority given its Zoroastrian connection. Some of the research in early imamite studies coming out of the French school (G. Monnot, M.A. Amir-Moezzi) is producing very definite challenges to our a priori conclusions of the earliest period of Islam's development. The imams indeed frequently criticize the official sunna Quran for omission of words, and although there were different recensions at the time of the third caliph, there is general agreement in the imams's writings that the recension brought forth by Ali was quite different (said to be three times as large). Moreover, the imams's citations of suras are frequently different than in the ibn Thabit recension we are all familiar with. The sixth imam, Jafar Saddiq, also a profound khirqa-wearing Sufi and esotericist whose broadmindedness permitted Muslims to pray in Churches well after the sunna theologians and legalists forbid Muslims to do so, and who also carried on spiritual discussions with the Nestorian spirituals, was quite emphatic that the official Quran was already changed. (see, Moezzi, Le Guide Divin dans le Shi'isme Originel (Editions Verdier) One can argue the validity of these claims until one is blue in the face. I would only suggest that oral tradition (both among Persian Sufis and the inner circles of Shi'ites) has an uncanny way of preserving itself through many centuries. I have heard from my own teachers in Kashmir that they too feel the Quran was changed in the course of history -- and these dervishes have no contact with the west at all. Only God the Compassionate really knows. Nur Jemal Gale From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 5 17:33:23 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04017; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 02:03:54 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA11422; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:46:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA10763; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:37:10 -0500 (EST) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03602; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:33:24 -0500 Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA25368 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:33:23 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:33:23 -0500 Message-Id: <960405123321_369643796@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Maharaja email address Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello Maharaj Please send me your email address. I can't find it and my son is demanding use of the computer. I've tried going over recent mail but I can't find your address. (My son has just insisted I capitalize all first letters in these sentences, or else, remove the periods! "Daddy!!!" he says) in peace Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 5 23:54:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06617; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 02:23:24 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA22229; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 19:11:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA20809; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 18:55:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28374; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 18:54:52 -0500 Received: from Prevost.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u5LKm-000FatC; Fri, 5 Apr 96 15:54 PST Message-Id: Date: Fri, 5 Apr 96 15:54 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Allah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Allah There is no God. You are nothing. There is only Allah, Hu is not a who: incomprehensible! What you have worshiped is no more than another idol. All gods and all illusions are the same. Jabriel crush this arrogance. Begin with Allah, before any other names. >From here the light behind the light shines by means of and through an eye of certainty. >From here iman (faith) makes luminous the path. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 5 17:49:04 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12306; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 03:08:00 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA14607; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 13:28:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from rara.ossi.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA11774; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:51:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from leiber.ossi.com (leiber.ossi.com [192.240.5.68]) by rara.ossi.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA16275 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:51:28 -0800 Received: by leiber.ossi.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BB22D5.23B0D330@leiber.ossi.com>; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:49:10 -0800 Message-Id: From: Nagaraju Pappu To: "'tariqas@europe.std.com'" Subject: RE: True Teachers [was Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:49:04 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 Encoding: 55 TEXT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >>Is the Buddha considered not to be a true teacher because he had no >teacher >>and was a self-appointed teacher? a very interesting and a very difficult question! i do not know the answers, but let me share my thoughts on this for discussion. one can answer this in two ways. the safest which does not contradict with the following idea of a teacher, is to accept that history did not record who their teachers were! second, which i believe is that like in any other path, there are geniuses, and people who are extraordinarily gifted on the path to truth as well. there is a teacher inside all of us - the LORD. if you can listen to him, and learn from him, the need for an outside projection of the teacher within does not arise. the voice of heart is soft and week, it is silenced by the voice of ignorance, of hate, of the din and roar of dialy existence. in hindu tradition, questions like this are explained with the help of the theory of karma and rebirth. the sage vamadeva (one of the teachers of rama, the hero of ramayan) is believed to have realised while he was in the womb of his mother even in sufi tradition, we come across wonderful stories of how Khidr helped some people realise the truth in an instant. but ofcourse, Khidr is their teacher in such cases. > > >>In a message dated 96-04-03 09:59:30 EST, you write: > >> >>> It is very important to have a living teacher as your guide. It can > >>>indeed be dangerous to try practices out of books. If nothing else you >>>come up with some kind of stew. Beware of self-appointed teachers. A >true >>>teacher will come from a line of knowledge. A true teacher will give you > >>>the practices that are right for you to help you on your road of truth. >A >>>teacher will serve as a mirror. If you are strong enough to face what >>>you see there, you will do whatever is necessary to polish the mirror of >>>your heart. > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 16:36:30 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14953; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 13:01:15 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA21905; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:37:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05810; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:29:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA18763; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:36:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:36:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199604061636.LAA18763@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [ZIAulHUQ@aol.com] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Sat Apr 6 11:36:24 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA17968; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:13:04 -0500 (EST) From: ZIAulHUQ@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07212; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:03:55 -0500 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA17154 for Tariqas@world.std.com; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:03:54 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:03:54 -0500 Message-Id: <960406110353_463718048@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: Tariqas@world.std.com Subject: SHAIKH SERIF IN NYC IN MAY HU, Shiekh Serif of the Rifai-Marufi Order of Istambul will be in NYC in the beginning of May and will conduct one or two Zikrs to which all are welcome. Also if anyone has a space which they can offer for the Zikrs, or can suggest a space that would be most appreciated. Now residing in North Carolina Shiekh Serif is the head of the Rifai-Marufi Order of America, and can be reached at: M. SERIF CATALKAYA RIFAI MARUFI ORDER OF AMERICA P.O. Box 296 CARRBORO, NC 27510 919-933-0772 For more information on the Zikrs in NYC call 212-265-4345 or Email at this address. HU From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 5 16:56:56 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11292; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:21:16 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA12213; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:54:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from homer17.u.washington.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA08012; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:56:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by homer17.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.03/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA51572; Fri, 5 Apr 96 08:56:57 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 08:56:56 -0800 (PST) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism In-Reply-To: <3161EF30.1866@sinewave.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum On Tue, 2 Apr 1996, Gale wrote: > reflect diverse points of view among its participants. As amoebic as history can > be, given sources of information, let alone oral traditions which are not found > in written texts, we do indeed grope in the dark. > > In the last century there was controversy over the believed discovery of > two lost suras (surat al-nurwayn "Two Lights", and surat al-walaya which > made explicit reference to Ali) > clip< this sounds very weird to me, based on personal experience being Shi'i for about 15 years, living in Iran and going to Qum many times where I visited friends studying there. I've never heard anyone speak of 2 missing suras, and the same Qur'an is found there as everywhere else. It is rather discouraging, I was born Jewish, and yet was never included in that conspiracy either. > One can argue the validity of these claims until one is blue in the > face. Please, let's not do that, I don't think these claims are worth that much effort. I would > only suggest that oral tradition (both among Persian Sufis and the inner circles > of Shi'ites) has an uncanny way of preserving itself through many centuries. I > have heard from my own teachers in Kashmir that they too feel the Quran was > changed in the course of history -- and these dervishes have no contact with the > west at all. This is exactly why this is implausible - what of all the generations of Hafiz - individuals who memorize the Qur'an - how could they have all transmitted the Qur'an with the same 2 suras missing for all these centuries? This sounds like too big of a conspiracy theory for even the most paranoid to swallow. Not to cast aspersions on the one who posted, but it makes one wonder about the originator of the 'controversy' and what their agenda was. > > Only God the Compassionate really knows. Amin Lily From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 5 16:57:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11527; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:22:00 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA11058; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:41:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA08441; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:01:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from homer17.u.washington.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14126; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:58:27 -0500 Received: from localhost by homer17.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.03/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA70281; Fri, 5 Apr 96 08:57:54 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 08:57:54 -0800 (PST) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqasnet Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum On Tue, 2 Apr 1996, Gale wrote: > reflect diverse points of view among its participants. As amoebic as history can > be, given sources of information, let alone oral traditions which are not found > in written texts, we do indeed grope in the dark. > > In the last century there was controversy over the believed discovery of > two lost suras (surat al-nurwayn "Two Lights", and surat al-walaya which > made explicit reference to Ali) > clip< this sounds very weird to me, based on personal experience being Shi'i for about 15 years, living in Iran and going to Qum many times where I visited friends studying there. I've never heard anyone speak of 2 missing suras, and the same Qur'an is found there as everywhere else. It is rather discouraging, I was born Jewish, and yet was never included in that conspiracy either. > One can argue the validity of these claims until one is blue in the > face. Please, let's not do that, I don't think these claims are worth that much effort. I would > only suggest that oral tradition (both among Persian Sufis and the inner circles > of Shi'ites) has an uncanny way of preserving itself through many centuries. I > have heard from my own teachers in Kashmir that they too feel the Quran was > changed in the course of history -- and these dervishes have no contact with the > west at all. This is exactly why this is implausible - what of all the generations of Hafiz - individuals who memorize the Qur'an - how could they have all transmitted the Qur'an with the same 2 suras missing for all these centuries? This sounds like too big of a conspiracy theory for even the most paranoid to swallow. Not to cast aspersions on the one who posted, but it makes one wonder about the originator of the 'controversy' and what their agenda was. > > Only God the Compassionate really knows. Amin Lily From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 5 12:42:26 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12958; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:27:02 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id FAA18983; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 05:49:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id FAA18656; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 05:40:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sale.cscs.fi.cnr.it by mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20127; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:42:26 GMT Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:42:26 GMT Message-Id: <9604051242.AA20127@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it> X-Sender: sale@risc.idg.fi.cnr.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: sale@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (sale@cscs.fi.cnr.it) Subject: Re: True Teachers [was Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >hello all, > >I have been following this thread on Idries Shah. > >One small group of questions from something that was said here as quoted >below: > >Is this idea of a true teacher one that is followed throughout the world of >the Sufis? >What of the Uwaisiyyah Order teachers? >Who was the teacher of Mohammed? >Is the Buddha considered not to be a true teacher because he had no teacher >and was a self-appointed teacher? > >I ask this questions respectfully, as is most befitting this group, almost >all of whose postings show mutual respect for the positions of searching of >others. > >in peace, >Jinavamsa > > >In a message dated 96-04-03 09:59:30 EST, you write: > > >> It is very important to have a living teacher as your guide. It can >>indeed be dangerous to try practices out of books. If nothing else you >>come up with some kind of stew. Beware of self-appointed teachers. A true >>teacher will come from a line of knowledge. A true teacher will give you >>the practices that are right for you to help you on your road of truth. A >>teacher will serve as a mirror. If you are strong enough to face what >>you see there, you will do whatever is necessary to polish the mirror of >>your heart. > > > > Not exist an Historical Uwaisiyahh order, but probably we can call with this name all Awlya ullah which recived a teaching by a not alive teachers or by Hadrat al Khidr, in any case this very peculiar kind of Sufi must check their condition with an alive teacher who can confirm them in their specail condition. In many tasawwuf books these kind of people are called AFRAD, which means separated; infact they are not under the common controll of the Ghauth of their age, Leader of all diwan of Awliya ullah, called also Qutb al Zaman; only one in each time. The teacher of Holy profet Muhammed (PH)was been Hadrat Gybril (PH)formally, but internally, He is The Teacher absolutely, depending only and directly from Allah ta'ala, is was been the teacher of all profets (PT), all Waly. His essence is the pure Knwoledge. SALAM WA RAHMA HAMZA NAJMUDDIN From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 5 12:42:41 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13049; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:27:19 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id FAA19005; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 05:50:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id FAA18658; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 05:40:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sale.cscs.fi.cnr.it by mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20129; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:42:41 GMT Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:42:41 GMT Message-Id: <9604051242.AA20129@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it> X-Sender: sale@risc.idg.fi.cnr.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@world.std.com From: sale@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (sale@cscs.fi.cnr.it) Subject: Re: Ismail and Issac Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 00.42 04/04/96 PST, tariqas@facteur.std.com wrote: >I submit the following questions with the greatest respect. Does anyone have >any information regarding wheather Ishmail and Issac ever got together after >they grew up. Apparently they lived close enough for Abraham to visit and >build the Kaba with Ishmael and still be with Issac. I believe that this is >a very important issue and I have never seen it pursued either by Moslem or >Jewish scholars. Further, their is a clear discrepency in the historical >facts as to wheather it was Issac or Ishmail who was commanded to be >sacrificed by Abraham. Both the Jewish and Christian doctrines suggest that >it was Issac. Both of these doctrines are also older than the Qu'ran. As a >Moslem does one by necessity declare that the Qu'ran is 100% the word of >Allah as transmitted to Mohammed? Is it suggested that no letter or word >has been altered by any of the Caliphs for political reasons? What was >there relationship. It seems as though this was one of the only times in >history whereby two prophets were living simultaneously in such close >proximity. Given that both were Moslem, that is to say Jewish and >intrinsically a slave to Allah there must have been some desire for them to >confer with one another. Jabriel >----------------------------------------- > Jabriel Hanafi > Dynamics Unlimited > Suite 806 327 Maitland > Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 >Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 > > > DEAR brother Jabriel A complete clarification about Seydna Ismail and Seydna Isac (PT)you can find in the famous book of Tabari, collecting Hadith on the profets before Seydna Mohammed (PH9, "THE PROFETS AND THE KINGS". In that is said the S.Isac born five years after S. Ismail (He was the first and so is true that he was been chosed for the sacrifice)and so each year with their father S. Ibrahim S.Ismail (PT) met S. Ismail (PH) in Mecca during the Hajj, and after the death of S. Ibrahim (PH), S. Ismail visited each year his brother Isac and the tomb of His father (PT). Seydna Isac lived hundred years more the his brother ismail (PT). Salam wa rahma Hamza Najmuddin From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 5 12:42:41 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13152; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:28:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id FAA18972; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 05:49:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id FAA18765; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 05:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (risc.idg.fi.cnr.it) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16097; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 05:40:31 -0500 Received: from sale.cscs.fi.cnr.it by mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20129; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:42:41 GMT Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:42:41 GMT Message-Id: <9604051242.AA20129@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it> X-Sender: sale@risc.idg.fi.cnr.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@world.std.com From: sale@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (sale@cscs.fi.cnr.it) Subject: Re: Ismail and Issac Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 00.42 04/04/96 PST, tariqas@facteur.std.com wrote: >I submit the following questions with the greatest respect. Does anyone have >any information regarding wheather Ishmail and Issac ever got together after >they grew up. Apparently they lived close enough for Abraham to visit and >build the Kaba with Ishmael and still be with Issac. I believe that this is >a very important issue and I have never seen it pursued either by Moslem or >Jewish scholars. Further, their is a clear discrepency in the historical >facts as to wheather it was Issac or Ishmail who was commanded to be >sacrificed by Abraham. Both the Jewish and Christian doctrines suggest that >it was Issac. Both of these doctrines are also older than the Qu'ran. As a >Moslem does one by necessity declare that the Qu'ran is 100% the word of >Allah as transmitted to Mohammed? Is it suggested that no letter or word >has been altered by any of the Caliphs for political reasons? What was >there relationship. It seems as though this was one of the only times in >history whereby two prophets were living simultaneously in such close >proximity. Given that both were Moslem, that is to say Jewish and >intrinsically a slave to Allah there must have been some desire for them to >confer with one another. Jabriel >----------------------------------------- > Jabriel Hanafi > Dynamics Unlimited > Suite 806 327 Maitland > Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 >Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 > > > DEAR brother Jabriel A complete clarification about Seydna Ismail and Seydna Isac (PT)you can find in the famous book of Tabari, collecting Hadith on the profets before Seydna Mohammed (PH9, "THE PROFETS AND THE KINGS". In that is said the S.Isac born five years after S. Ismail (He was the first and so is true that he was been chosed for the sacrifice)and so each year with their father S. Ibrahim S.Ismail (PT) met S. Ismail (PH) in Mecca during the Hajj, and after the death of S. Ibrahim (PH), S. Ismail visited each year his brother Isac and the tomb of His father (PT). Seydna Isac lived hundred years more the his brother ismail (PT). Salam wa rahma Hamza Najmuddin From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 04:05:30 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13671; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:57:33 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA09282; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 23:35:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA07597; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 23:08:56 -0500 (EST) From: ennea@net-gate.com Received: from ns1.net-gate.com (inetgw-cwi.cwi.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05215; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 23:07:05 -0500 Received: from modem2.net-gate.com (modem2.net-gate.com [205.136.25.249]) by ns1.net-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA26174 for ; Fri, 5 Apr 1996 23:05:30 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 23:05:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199604060405.XAA26174@ns1.net-gate.com> X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: wudu Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >Clearly, there is more to wudu than what you have implied. How can we >learn of the meaning unless we let go of our assumptions and sit at the >feet of one who really knows? Perhaps the conditioning we must overcome >is our unwillingness to do this. I apologize for my possible inaccurate writings. I had intended to portray possibilities of why some might feel that all of Islam is no longer relevant to all men. I surely am not a person that can state anything regarding possible modern day irrelevances in Islam with any accuracy. I still hold to the argument that some rituals and practices are created for objective purposes that are not universally valid for all times and places. It seems that this major thought of my original post was overlooked and instead smaller statements were responded to. I would appreciate any feedback on this idea, especially regarding Islam. Sincerely, Mark Fenkner From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 09:27:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02034; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:52:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA01055; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 04:59:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA29918; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 04:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22376; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 04:27:47 -0500 Received: from Quadra.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u5UHI-000FbJC; Sat, 6 Apr 96 01:27 PST Message-Id: Date: Sat, 6 Apr 96 01:27 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: al Wakil (2) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Al Wakil That which calls itself I, also thinks its the trusty of this life, the mask and the role only comes off during an eclipse in time. Under the veil is another sense of reality. It is more authentic but how can anything be more real? Jabriel, there is only one Reality, everything else a distraction, and there is no time to even wink. Then might as well take a breath and smile while pretending to be being conscious with the light pouring - forget in - how about through. Don't scratch your head. Its really just a wasted motion. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 17:21:07 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10433; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:19:19 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA10631; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 08:18:29 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from kantti.helsinki.fi by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA09016; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 07:45:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from Elo.helsinki.fi (elo.Helsinki.FI [128.214.79.31]) by kantti.helsinki.fi (8.6.12+Emil1.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id PAA07693 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:45:12 +0300 Received: from ELO/SpoolDir by Elo.helsinki.fi (Mercury 1.21); 6 Apr 96 16:08:25 EET Received: from SpoolDir by ELO (Mercury 1.21); 6 Apr 96 16:08:14 EET From: "Elmolhoda Morteza" Organization: University of Helsinki To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:08:14 EET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: ***Questions on Dancing Dervishes**** X-Confirm-Reading-To: morteza.elmolhoda@helsinki.fi Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Message-Id: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Greeting of Love and Peace Assalaamu Alaikum Could anyone kindly provide me with some information in answer to the following questions (presented to me by one of the students of the University of Helsinki): 1. How and why dancing entered the Sufism? 2. Who were the first Sufis who practised dancing? 3. Why did the Rumi chose dancing? 4. Is there any symbolic meaning for certain movements in the dancing of whirling dervishes? I will appreciate if some bibliography related to the above-mentioned questions is also introduced. With thanks Morteza morteza.elmolhoda@helsinki.fi