From tariqas-approval Sun Aug 27 05:50:27 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29668; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 09:50:28 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29657; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 09:50:27 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 09:50:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199508271350.AA29657@world.std.com> Received: from line102.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 10:01:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Shaykh Nazim Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Being still fairly new to this group, it is surprising to me to see disparaging remarks about Jesuits and "the c word". Does not tolerance and understanding of others lie at the heart of Sufism? Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Sun Aug 27 07:46:30 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21330; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 12:46:53 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21317; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 12:46:50 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-3 #8051) id <01HUKGVXLQRK95R1DV@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 12:46:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 12:46:30 -0500 (EST) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Subject: Reply to A.Chande To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HUKGVXN8GI95R1DV@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 27-Aug-1995 12:15pm EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: Reply to A.Chande as-salamu alaykum, I praise your comment on Shaykh Nazim's status, that "it needs more investigation." That is the proper adab for people of tariqa, and the best way to state that you don't agree. There are many, many ways in tasawwuf to recognize the authenticity of a shaykh. Those who mix these ways with what they are bringing from "Jahiliyya" (their period of ignorance) are not going to profit. So it is important always to keep the adab and the precedents of sufis in all our expressions, even those of rejection. One of the great Naqshbandi shaykhs said: The meaning of the ayat in Qur'an <> is that <>. This is confirmed by the hadith: <>. What we do know of saints is not something based on certitude, however certain we may become (either suddenly or over time); but on conjecture, comparison, analysis, combined with intuition and a sense of inner satisfaction. But these are nothing compared to vision without veils. The latter is reserved for saints and only they can teach you about it or bring you to it, with God's permission. If the heart is still trapped in the mire of animality, however, they will never look at you, and never even allow you to see them! About competition, historically it is a part of sufi groups, and jealousy also. Of course the best of tasawwuf resides in the masters, not the followers or even the relatives! Look at what they did to Shams out of jealousy. And "they" were "in tariqa"! Even the Prophets's relatives went against them. However: we are ordered to compete towards the good, as God said: <>. Finally, I remember a few lines from Sa`di to the effect that a man was bitten by a dog on his foot, and lied in bed all night groaning in pain. His daughter became exasperated and said: "Don't you have teeth also?" So he replied: "Yes, but try as I may, I can never bring myself to bite a dog's foot!" Blessings and Peace on the Prophet of Mercy, his Family, and his Companions. Fouad Haddad Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation From tariqas-approval Sun Aug 27 07:13:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07556; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:19:39 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper.mcimail.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07530; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:19:37 -0400 Received: from mailgate.mcimail.com (mailgate.mcimail.com [166.38.40.3]) by gatekeeper.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA18368; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 17:17:53 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate.mcimail.com id aa20115; 27 Aug 95 17:15 WET Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 12:13 EST From: Mike Moore <0007106488@mcimail.com> To: tariqas Subject: Re: About Shaykh Hisham Kabbani Message-Id: <75950827171357/0007106488PJ4EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: If you say that the Naqshbandi way is the ONLY true representation of Islam then this means that ALL other 'ways' are not true representations of Islam. This means that if you are not Naqshbandi, you do not represent Islam. This is the way English works. Here is an experiment. Hide some wooden blocks in a bucket. Pull one out and give it to a four year old. Tell him that 'this was the only red block in the bucket' (I am assuming you pulled a red block.) Next say to him "Are there any more red blocks in the bucket?" He will say no. It is that simple. I don't see how anybody in his right mind could make a statement like 'my path is the only true path' on this tariqas and not expect people to object. Now, if the offending statement has some 'special meaning' or 'special context' then this SHOULD be posted along with the message if your intent is to communicate. -Michael- From tariqas-approval Sun Aug 27 07:30:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14456; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:36:56 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper.mcimail.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14417; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:36:54 -0400 Received: from mailgate.mcimail.com (mailgate.mcimail.com [166.38.40.3]) by gatekeeper.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA02433; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 17:34:16 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate.mcimail.com id ac23809; 27 Aug 95 17:32 WET Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 12:30 EST From: Mike Moore <0007106488@mcimail.com> To: tariqas Subject: RE: Naqshbandis Message-Id: <12950827173021/0007106488PJ4EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Snip--------------- Assalamu alaikum. >From my limited understanding, the Naqshbandi tariqa(s) is a very widespread and diverse order, including branches which owe allegiance to Shaykh Nazim, Idries Shah, Idries Shah's brother, and other teachers. While Shaykhs Nazim and Hisham are the most widely known Naqshbandi Shaykhs, and almost certainly have the most followers, it might be more proper to refer to this branch as the Naqshbandi-Haqqani order, rather than assuming that their perspective represents all Naqshbandis. If my understanding is incorrect, I'm sure someone will correct me. habib rose Snip-------------- I believe that you are correct. I attend a Naqshbandi 'order' that is not Haqqani. The Shaykh where I go has spoke on the problem of tariqas claiming to be the only true this or the only true that. He said that these kinds of statements divide people against people and that what we need to do is to be bringing people together towards Allah. This reminds me of something I heard an Indian guru say many years ago. "It is not necessary to find the source of darkness, all that is necessary is to turn on the light and darkness will be gone." -Michael- From tariqas-approval Sun Aug 27 06:09:41 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02521; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 16:08:59 -0400 Received: from tacoma.nwrain.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02477; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 16:08:55 -0400 Received: from p25.tpl1.nwrain.net by tacoma.nwrain.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0smo5t-000PZcC; Sun, 27 Aug 95 13:14 PDT Message-Id: X-Sender: rayl@tacoma.nwrain.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:09:41 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: rayl@nwrain.com (Ray Levesque) Subject: re: Praising in Islam... Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Greetings Kabir! At the risk of appearing a sycophant, *3 cheers* for your post. I see little difference between the religious marketing of televangelism (and its rise and fall) and this Internet *dawa*. I hope to begin again the Forty day program. It does have enough material for years if need be, but I think it is time for me to get serious and commited. I appreciate your past support and encouragement. I look forward to being with you again more directly. Ray (now in Seattle for a long, long time (no more Dallas)) > >On Fri, 25 Aug 1995, Mateen Siddiqui wrote: > >> Our shaykh's stated purpose, in coming to the West and in publicizing >> his work is for only one thing: to bring as many people to Islam >> and Sufism as possible. Part of that is done via PR, as you >> so snidely put it, as is effective and useful. There are no billboards >> or magazine ads touting our shaykh, but if that were an effective >> means of bringing people to the Din, it would certainly be not only >> acceptable but recommended, in shari'ah, in tariqah and in haqiqah. > >Such things would undoubtedly be successful for bringing people to your >tariqa. But to say such would be "recommended" in shariah, tariqa and >especially "haqiqah" is laughable. > >> However, if you have met either Shaykh Nazim or Shaykh Hisham, his >> calipha, you will realize how very humble they are. >> > >Yes, yes, we've heard this before again and again, about Rajneesh, about >Muktananda, about so many others until the truth couldn't be hidden any >longer... > >> You confuse method with content, as a person watching a battlefield >> say between (your favorite example) Hitler's troops and the Allies >> and says, "I see no difference between the two groups, they both >> carry similar weapons, they wear similar clothing, they shout and >> scream the same, obviously they are the same in intent and malice." >> > >No, I don't think I'm confused here. > >> One example of what I am relating, i.e. that our shaykh's purpose is to >> spread Islam and the Naqshbandiyya in the West, is his adoption of the >> form of dhikr to one more palatable in the West. Usually the Khatm of >> the Naqshbandiyya is done silently, as the silent dhikr is considered >> preferable. However, due to the circumstances in the West, the shaykh >> has concluded the louder dhikr is preferable as it has an appealing >> quality to Westerners. > >> Therefore, he has taken the fatwa used by the 40 >> other turuq which permits loud group dhikr, sometimes perhaps to the >> consternation of more "orthodox" Naqshbandis. > >Yes, yes, we westerners come from a pretty cacophonous and noisy culture. >The loud dhikr must make them feel more at home. > >> >> His intention is that followed by the Prophet Muhammad (s), as his stated >> intention was "to confront people until they say 'la ilaha ill-Allah.'" >> This he spent 23 years doing. This included what you have termed >> "advertising" by sending letters to the greatest leaders of his time, >> the Negus of Abyssinia, the Kaiser of Persia and the Holy Roman Emperor >> calling them to follow him and follow the Religion of Peace, the >> Sublime Path to God. > > >Yes, but did he, on a monthly basis, tell everybody, again and again and >again, about the Big Wheels that he's gotten interested in Islam? > >> >> As for praising a shaykh being in any way fascism, then accordingly most >> of the Muslim Sufi scholars and shaykhs were fascists, [istaghfirullah] >> as they praised our beloved and honored master Muhammad, they praised the >> Sahaba, they praised the awliya and they praised their shaykhs. The >> style employed by Fouad in previous posts is very common in Arabic >> Islamic literature contrary to your statements to the contrary. It may >> not be a style that appeals to the Western intellect, but is a form >> very admired in Arab culture, one which is very language-oriented, >> because of the use of eloquence and subtleties of the language to create >> "flourishes" of meaning, like a painter on a canvas. >> > >I guess this is an issue that your sheik has not gotten around to >adjusting to the western mind set, even though, as you say, it doesn't >appeal to "the Western intellect." I guess alllowing westerners to have >loud dhikr sessions has a greater priority, which I can understand. >But...it does still have an arbitrary air about it, not stopping western >intellects from constantly hearing such praises, that it's not regarded >too as "common sense" in our sport-star and movie-star and >superstar-obsessed culture to put the brakes on this sort of thing >vis-a-vis Sheik Nazim. > >> To consider such praise idolatry is simply the highest form of >> ignorance, as exhibited by the Wahabis and Salafis today when they >> attack Sufism. In response the Sufis say, "they never understand >> the difference between worship and respect!" >> > >Hey, I think the Wahabis and Salafis have much, much that is wrong with >them, no doubt, Allah protect real Sufis from them, but sometimes even >their critiques are correct when dealing with excesses among Sufis. It's >shameful that Sufis will leave that field wide open to the enemies of >Sufism when those who call themselves Sufis but are off-the-wall and are >left unchallenged by real Sufis. Sufism's enemies use examples of wacko >goofy-Sufi Sufism, so to speak, to "tar and feather* ALL of Sufism, >throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If one looks at the history of >cultism, one always finds many instances of where the authorities had very >good reasons for throwing cultic murshids, gurus and "spiritual figures" >in jail. > >> As for needing streetcryers announcing Ibn 'Arabi's arrival, >> or for that matter any shaykh's, it was not necessary and still >> is not, as the sincere people are quickly pulled from whereever >> they are at the approach of such Oceans of Gnosis. Our shaykh, >> Mawlana Shaykh Nazim is the same way, with little or no announcement, >> he is consistently greeted by hundreds sometimes thousands, wherever >> he goes. > >The same has been said innumerable times by followers of many cultic leaders. > >> If what you mean to say is "today there are no more Ibn 'Arabi's" >> then you are dead wrong. God said, speaking about the Forerunners >> in the Race to God, "many from among the first and few from among >> the Last," indicating there are always some of them present, and >> God knows best. ["thulatun min al-awwaleen wa qaleelan min >> al-aakhireen"] > > >I'm not dead wrong, as this is the first thing you say that I agree with >whole-heartedly. We disagree about who they are. > >> As to mentioning the "celebrities" and famous who meet with >> our shaykhs, it is something we celebrate, as we are most happy >> when we see someone pulled towards the beauty and love which >> is the essence of Islam, as manifested by our shaykhs' personal >> behavior and attributes. It is simply a sign of their greatness >> that they are able to attract such persons, who thousands are >> always attempting to attract with little success. > >The above shows you are dead-wrong. Celebrities can be found in all kinds >of cults, regardless of the religion. I know very honest and honerable >people who have met your sheik or attended his meetings, and most of them >describe him with very different adjectives than you do. > > > Ray Levesque - Consultant - rayl@idea-clc.com Internet Distance Education Associates 2208 NW Market Suite 509 Seattle, WA 98107 USA http://www.iclnet.org/robwes/robwes.html Phone: 206.789.7326 FAX: 206.783-2809 Internet DE Technology and Curricular Integration From tariqas-approval Sun Aug 27 06:28:57 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16770; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 16:28:07 -0400 Received: from tacoma.nwrain.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16741; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 16:28:05 -0400 Received: from p19.tpl1.nwrain.net by tacoma.nwrain.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0smoOX-000PZbC; Sun, 27 Aug 95 13:33 PDT Message-Id: X-Sender: rayl@tacoma.nwrain.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:28:57 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: rayl@nwrain.com (Ray Levesque) Subject: Re: Shaykh Nazim Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >Being still fairly new to this group, it is surprising to me to see >disparaging remarks about Jesuits and "the c word". Does not tolerance and >understanding of others lie at the heart of Sufism? I don't believe the Jesuits were disparaged -- they have excellent training in certain useful ways of education. I am indebted to some of their education myself. But they do have a certain pattern which is recognizable: not *bad*, but not always appropriate. As to the "c" word, maybe it's time someone "calls it like they sees it." This is the work the prophets. If Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed (pbut) had been all *tact*, we would likely not be following their examples... It may well be that tolerance and understanding of others lie at the heart of Sufism, but I must ask of my self how close or far *I* am from the heart of Sufism. What gives us (tariqas) our personality? It is this admixture of followers, leaders, prophets, novices, curious and smug, -- all in one email reflector. Like the saying goes, you can pick your friends but not your relatives.... Your relative, Ray > >Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington >Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore >US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > jmccaig@worldweb.net > > > From tariqas-approval Sun Aug 27 07:06:58 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12576; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 17:07:01 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12529; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 17:06:58 -0400 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (bergner@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA21995 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 14:06:57 -0700 From: Paul Bergner Message-Id: <199508272106.OAA21995@desiree.teleport.com> Subject: Re: Shaykh Nazim To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 14:06:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: from "Ray Levesque" at Aug 27, 95 01:28:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 806 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Asalaamu alaikum. It remains a mystery to me how anyone can compare Sheikh Nazim to a Nazi (who committed mass murder), or to Bhagawan Rajneesh or others (who manipulated and committed indescretions with their followers.) Astafirrulah! Are you implying that the Sheikh has done these things? Or do you simply disagree with his dervishes' superlatives?. Why do you call him a fraud? Do you have some personal knowledge of this? If you disagree that he "holds the keys to all tariqas" why not just say so. If you hold that "there should be no compulsion in religion" why not just "let truth stand clear from error?" We have a hadiith from our Prophet, peace be upon him, that if someone speaks ill of another, and it is true, they are a backbiter. If it is false, they are a slanderer. Peace Mustafa From tariqas-approval Sun Aug 27 13:44:25 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01360; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 17:48:24 -0400 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01351; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 17:48:23 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA25147 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 17:44:25 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 17:44:25 -0400 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <950827174423_84676206@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Yowwee! nabbed again! Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Abdkabir, yippes! I've been criticized! regarding your criticism of my posting i.e. your criticism that I may be supporting a stepping stone to a lesser ideal. I think you missed the point. I was adressing the other guy who was saying how his Shiek was the most wonderful and best and how he may think this but that he ought not try bursting my ideal... etc. However perhaps you have gotten a bit wound up over this and think I was criticizing you. Or are you sharing in the bravado of saying "My way is right and your way is wrong and belive me I know what is right for you." To answer about destroying ideals (which was not directed to you, unless you are now advocating these methods) is Yes I would never destroy anothers' ideal. There is that wonderful story of the robber who attacked the wise man walking through the forest in India. The wise man pulled out some jewlels and gave them to the robber and said "But is that all you want, is your ideal so small?" Eventually this robber took the wise mans advise and became a better robber and then became the leader of a band of robbers and continually became a greater and greater robber. Eventually, of course, he graduated to become the great protector and saviour of all of India because he continually followed a greater and greater ideal. Now, I don't know what your experience has been but I have allways graduated to a higher and higher ideal though ocassionally the path appeared to trend downward. And this is true of all the people that I have observed who have smashed their own ideals they have only found a greater ideal but those who have had their ideal smashed by someone else have often found a lesser one. Children and adults both. But on top of that I'm sure that I don't see why one can't voice opposition to what you consider an unsavory influence. And I don't know that one can't do this in clear and unequivical terms. It is just when someone has a policy to make claims that no one else can be right except themselves, this policy does not represent the best that one might be able to do in representing themselves. The first rule in the fight for the personal freedom is that of respect and nondefilement. In the case of crusaders who come to my door asking me if I have beed "saved" then I just hope that I can send them merrily on their way with a very few words because I really don't think that they pose a threat to me. However, it is allways a judgement call because they do have the possibility to pose that threat one day so that is why I respect and thank you for speaking up. (Although I must admit that at this point I have no idea what Faoud is talking about, it seems a little non-sequitor, in fact the whole discussion is hard to follow except for the continual patter of button pushing.) It seems that we often deal with intolerance on Tariqas and each time I am impressed that(in my opinion) the group is getting better and better at dealing with these tests and Habib (our host) must be becoming a saint as well as a master. Now I know what Balkanization means. love Asha From tariqas-approval Sun Aug 27 09:21:50 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22161; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 19:23:56 -0400 Received: from lafn.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22108; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 19:23:53 -0400 Received: by lafn.org id AA22608 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Sun, 27 Aug 1995 16:21:50 -0700 Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 16:21:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199508272321.AA22608@lafn.org> From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: [phanes@cris.com: Common LOGICAL FALLACIES] Cc: an525@lafn.org Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: A Thought this might be of some general interest in the ongoing discussions. Raqib (Although much of the topics in this forum transcend strict logico-rational methodology!) ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: phanes@cris.com (David Fideler) To: alexandria@world.std.com Subject: Common LOGICAL FALLACIES Date: Sun, 27 Aug Dear Readers, Common logical fallacies are rhetorical tools that may "look valid" but don't survive inspection on a closer analysis. I'm posting a list of some common logical fallacies with the hope that this will help us avoid making these common mistakes. A nicely formatted version of this will be available on my Web site. With best wishes, David Fideler COMMON LOGICAL FALLACIES I. Subjectivist Fallacies * Wishful thinking Example: "I want John to be innocent, therefore John is innocent." * Socialization ("That's the way I was brought up") Example: "I was brought up to believe that a woman's place is in the home. Therefore, a woman's place is in the home!" * Relativism Example: "The fact that Vivaldi is the greatest composer ever is true for me." * Appeal to Majority (argumentum ad populum) Example ("Now"): "The entire Republican party feels that local delegates should adopt a certain course of action; therefore, we should follow the plan, because it is the right course of action." Example ("Past" or "Appeal to tradition"): "According to the desert fathers, the best way to achieve salvation is to renounce our worldly goods and move to the desert; therefore, we should move to the desert if we hope to achieve salvation." Example ("Future" or "Wave of the future"): "All analysts believe that the future of commerce will be intimately tied up with emerging new information technologies; therefore, any businesses that hope to prosper should jump on the bandwagon and establish a presence on the World Wide Web." * Appeal to emotion (argumentum ad miserecordium; also a form of argumentum ad populum) Example: Any time the intent is to make an audience act on emotion instead of rational judgment. * Appeal to force (argumentum ad baculum) Example: "Son, if you don't take the practical types of classes that will help you succeed in today's world, I am going to cut off your tuition and financial support. Therefore, you should take the types of classes that I approve of." II. Credibility * Appeal to authority (argumentum ad verecundiam) Example: "Dozens of leading scientists believe that global warning is not a serious problem, therefore it is not a topic worthy of our concern." Problems with appeal to authority claims: citing a bogus expert; experts disagree; the authority cited is insincere. * Attacking an individual's credibility (ad hominem) The ad hominem argument dismisses a person's argument or statement by attacking the *person* rather than the statement itself. A. Tu quoque ("you're another"): "Look who's talking" Example: "Look who's talking. It's a case of the pot calling the kettle black!" B. Poisoning the well (claiming a vested interest in the conclusion) Example: "Of course she believes in equal rights for women -- she's a woman!" III. Fallacies of Logical Structure * Question begging (circular reasoning) Example: "The Bible is the literal word of God. How do I know? Well, it says so in the Bible!" * Post hoc ("after this"): p happened before q; therefore, p caused q Example: "I always win at pool when I wear my lucky sweater." * False alternatives Example: "The only way to be a true success in life is to become a doctor or a lawyer." *Appeal to ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam) There is no reason for not-p, therefore p is true. Example: "Chaos theory cannot rule out the possibility of the Earth making a sudden shift in its orbit. Therefore, it is likely that such a shift will occur in the near future." * Non sequitur (an irrelevant conclusion that does not follow) A. Red herring (diversion) The tactic of changing the issue in the middle of an argument. Example: The question in a court case is whether someone is guilty or not of child abuse. But the lawyer doesn't focus on that question, but dwells on the horrors of child abuse, because it's much easier to make a case for that. B. Straw man (bogus refutation) The argument has been restated and attacked. Trying to refute one proposition by raising another proposition and arguing against that instead. Or, distorting the original proposition, and then trying to refute the distorted form. Example: A student asks for more discussion in class. The instructor responds by saying that he doesn't want to turn the class into an aimless bull session. Note how "discussion" has been changed into "an aimless bull session" and then dismissed. Source of some analyses and examples: Chapter 6, "Fallacies," in David Kelley, The Art of Reasoning (New York: W. W. Norton, 1994). phanes@cris.com WWW pages: http://www.cris.com/~phanes/index.html -- q k From tariqas-approval Sun Aug 27 13:49:46 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01806; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 19:49:55 -0400 Received: from everest.cclabs.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01779; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 19:49:51 -0400 Received: from muphnx10 (muphnx10.phlab.missouri.edu [128.206.115.20]) by everest.cclabs.missouri.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA26159 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 18:49:50 -0500 From: Omar Qureshi Message-Id: <199508272349.SAA26159@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Received: by muphnx10 (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA01120; Sun, 27 Aug 95 18:49:46 -0500 Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 18:49:46 -0500 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: A Question Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Asalam wa Alaikum, There was once a question posed to a certain scholar of Islam on the topics in the books of Muhiyuddin Ibn al Arabi. I think that this will clear up some misconceptions of Sufis and of the mystical experience.(Insha Allah) This is only the first part of the answer. Bism Allah Al Rahman Al Raheem. QUESTION: Famous saints like Muhyiddin Ibn al-Arabi(May his mystery be sanctified), the author of al-Futhat al-Mekkiye, and Seyyid Abdulkerim(May his mystery be sanctified), the author of the well-known book entitled Insan-i Kamil, speak of seven levels of the globe of the earth and the white earth beyond the 'Kaf' mountain, and strange things in the Futuhat are called "mashmashiya." Are these true? But these places do not exist on the earth. Furthermore, these mountains that they say are not accepted by geography and science. And if they are not true, how can they be saints? How can people who say things contrary to reality and the truth in this way be "people of truth"? ANSWER: They are people of truth and reality. They are also saints and those who witness the realities. They saw correctly what they saw, but since were not correct in declarations they made while in the state of illumination and witnessing, which is without comprehension, and in their interpretations of their visions, which were like dreams, they were partially incorrect. People of illumination and witnessing of that sort cannot interpret their own dream while dreaming it. Those who can interpret them are the exacts scholars of the legacy of prophethood, called "the purified ones." For sure, that group of the people of witnessing, when they rise to the rank of the "purified ones," they understand their errors through the guidance of the Qur'an and Sunnah, and they correct them: and they did correct them. Listen to this story which is the form of a comparison which will illustrate this truth. It is like this : One time, there were two shepherds who were from among those who approach reality with their hearts. They milk their sheep into a wooden pail, and put the pail beside them. They laid their shepherd's pipe on the pail, then one of them stretched out,overcome by sleep. He slept for a while. THe other shepherd was watching him carefully when he saw something like a fly emerge from the sleeping man's nose, look at the pail of milk, enter the pipe at one end, emerge from the other, then disappear into a hole under a bush. Some while later the thing emerged again, passed down the shepherd's pipe, entered the sleeping man's nose, whereupon he awoke. He exclaimed, "I had an extraordinary dream!" His friend replied, "May God make good come of it. What was it?" THe other man said, " I saw a sea of milk stretching over which was a strange bridge. The upper part of the bridge was close and contained windows. I passed through the bridge. I saw a grove of oaks, the tops of which were all pointed. Beneath them was a cave: I entered it;, and I saw some treasure full of gold. How can this be interpreted I wonder?" His alert friend said to him, "The sea of milk you saw was this wooden pail, and the bridge, our shepherd's pipe. The pointed oak trees was this bush, while the cave was this small hole. Get the pickaxe and I'll show you the treasure." He brought the pick and they dug under the bush, and there they found gold enough to make both of them prosperous in this world. Thus, what the sleeping man dreamt was right, and what he saw, correct, but because he had no comprehension while dreaming and no right to interpret the dream, he could not distinguish between the physical world and the non-material world and his assertions were partially wrong; he said , "I saw an actual physical sea." But since the man who was awake could distinguish between the physical world and the World of Similitudes, he had the right to interpret the dream; he said," What you saw in the dream was right, but it wasn't an actual sea, and our milk pail appeared to your imagination as a sea, and our pipe as a bridge, and so on." That means the physical and spiritual worlds have to be distinguished from one another. If they are combined, the assertions appear wrong. For example, you have a small room, the four walls of which have ben covered with four large mirrors. When you enter it, you see the small room to be as broad as a large arena. If you say, "I see my room to be as large as a broad arena," what you say is correct. But if you assert, "My room is as large as a broad arena," you would be wrong, for you are confusing the World of Similitudes with the actual world. Thus not having weighed them on the balances of The Book and Sunna, certain people of illumination's description of the seven levels of the globe do not comprise only it's physical state from the point of view of geography. For instance, they said that one of the earth's level is that of the jinns and demons, and that it has a breadth of a thousand years. Whereas those strange levels are not situated on our globe, which revolves every one or two years. But if we suppose the globe to be like a pine seed in the World of Meaning, the World of Similitudes, the Intermediate Realm, and the World of Spirits, the similitude of the tree that would be formed from it would be like a huge pine-tree in relation the seed. Thus, in their spiritual journeyings, some of the people of witnessing have seen some of the earth's levels in the World of Similitudes to be extremely extensive; they have seen them to stretch over a distance of thousands of years. What they saw was right, but because superficially the World of Similitudes resembles the physical world, they saw the two worlds blended together, and interpreted them thus. When they returned to the world of sobriety, since they lacked the balance, and since they wrote exactly what they witnessed, it has been considered to be contrary to reality. Like the similitudes of a large palace and large garden are situated in a small mirror, so too, similitudes and non-material realities of the extensiveness of thousands of years are situated in a single year's distance of the physical world. CONCLUSION: It is understood from this matter that the degree of 'witnessing' is much inferior to that of belief in the Unseen. That is to say, the uncomprehending illuminations of some of the saints relying only on 'witnessing' do not attain to the statements about the truths of belief of the purified and exact scholars, who are the people of the legacy of prophethood, and who rely on the Qur'an and Revelation, not on 'witnessing'- their statements, which pertain to the Unseen but are lucid, comprehensive, and right. That is to say, the balance of all illumination, mental states, visions, and witnessing are the Book and Sunna. And their touchstone are the sacred principles of the Book and Sunna, and the conjectural rules of the purified scholars. From tariqas-approval Sun Aug 27 16:26:07 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17774; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 20:26:09 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17682; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 20:26:07 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 20:26:07 -0400 Message-Id: <199508280026.AA17682@world.std.com> Received: from line113.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 20:37:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Shaykh Nazim Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: At 01:28 PM 8/27/95 -0700, you wrote: >I don't believe the Jesuits were disparaged -- they have excellent training >in certain useful ways of education. I am indebted to some of their >education myself. But they do have a certain pattern which is recognizable: >not *bad*, but not always appropriate. I too have had the advantage of Jesuit education but feel no indebtedness, since they were paid for their work. In my contact with these men, it was always my impression that they were motivated by generosity and high purpose. When they told me theirs was the only way (does that sound familiar?), I rebelled and began to seek. For this I AM indebted to them. > >As to the "c" word, maybe it's time someone "calls it like they sees it." >This is the work the prophets. If Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed (pbut) had been >all *tact*, we would likely not be following their examples... All well and good, I was still surprised and with my limited knowledge of the Prophets, their lack of tact is unknown to me. > >It may well be that tolerance and understanding of others lie at the heart >of Sufism, but I must ask of my self how close or far *I* am from the heart >of Sufism. Only you could answer that, I agree wholeheartedly that one must look into their own heart. > > Not picking and choosing, only expressing surprise. Warm regards to family and friends, Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Sun Aug 27 18:53:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27377; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 22:57:00 -0400 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27364; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 22:56:58 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA13096 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 22:53:00 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 22:53:00 -0400 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <950827225259_64890869@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: [phanes@cris.com: Common LOGICAL FALLACIES] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Raqib, You forgot one * argumentum ad infintum - the desire to argue infinitly, no example need be cited From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 02:09:32 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15977; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 07:09:52 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15963; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 07:09:49 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-3 #8051) id <01HULJEICQC095R3RE@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 07:09:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 07:09:32 -0500 (EST) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Subject: Re: a question To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HULJEICU3M95R3RE@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 28-Aug-1995 06:52am EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: re: a question The answer given to the question concerning the reality of Ibn `Arabi's and Jili's statements about Qaf mountain and so forth, is of a doctrine that departs from the latter shaykhs' understanding respectively of "vision" (mushahada or mukashafa) and "belief (in the unseen)" (iman). The former (vision) is undoubtedly superior, to them as it was to the Prophet (s) for it is a state of certitude in relation to which "belief" is mere conjecture, and there is no return from vision to veiling. This is confirmed by Qur'an which uses "yaqeen" to distinguish that higher level from the belief of believers, and the highest types of yaqeen are those that fall under mushahada. There is little conjectural about it, unlike the findings of the scholars. To say, furthermore, that Ibn `Arabi and Jili were correct in their visions but erred in expressing them becvause they had no real understanding of them, and to compare that to a dreamer not understanding the import of his dream, is to miss the point of mushahada completely. It is undoubtedly more crystal-clear than the "wakeful" state, which imposes the veils of ordinary understanding and material criteria. This is confirmed by the tradition: <> or, "The people are asleep, and when they die they wake up." The one asleep is hardly in a position to correct or to explain the reality of the one who is awake! Certainly Ibn `Arabi and Jili were also scholars, which further weakens the view that they need scholars to correct them. Finally they were not known as the "drunken visionary" type of sufis, so objections based on that categorization are also unfounded. Ibn `Arabis' rejection of the genre of <> or <> [sweeping statements] is well-known. Blessings and Peace on the Prophet of Guidance, his Family, and his Companions. as-salamu alaykum, Fouad Haddad Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 11:51:20 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13103; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 10:52:22 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13092; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 10:52:20 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 10:52:20 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: [phanes@cris.com: Common LOGICAL FALLACIES] To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199508272321.AA22608@lafn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. Thanks so much for this list of logical fallacies. This list, if nothing else, has made it clear that I have nothing to say :-) Yours, habibullah From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 08:05:34 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12790; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:05:39 -0400 Received: from access5.digex.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12752; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:05:34 -0400 Received: (from tbear@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA01549 ; for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:05:34 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:05:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Abdkabir To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: About Shaykh Hisham Kabbani In-Reply-To: <75950827171357/0007106488PJ4EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 27 Aug 1995, Mike Moore wrote: > If you say that the Naqshbandi way is the ONLY true representation of Islam > then this means that ALL other 'ways' are not true representations of Islam. > > This means that if you are not Naqshbandi, you do not represent Islam. > > This is the way English works. Here is an experiment. Hide some wooden > blocks in a bucket. Pull one out and give it to a four year old. Tell him > that 'this was the only red block in the bucket' (I am assuming you pulled > a red block.) Next say to him "Are there any more red blocks in the bucket?" > He will say no. > > It is that simple. > > I don't see how anybody in his right mind could make a statement like 'my > path is the only true path' on this tariqas and not expect people to object. > > Now, if the offending statement has some 'special meaning' or 'special context' > then this SHOULD be posted along with the message if your intent is to > communicate. > Mike Moore has done a fine job above in *concisely* addressing my objection, better than I did, in fact. Thanks Mike, your rationality is appreciated!!! - Abd. Kabir From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 06:00:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18597; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:14:51 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper.mcimail.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18565; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:14:49 -0400 Received: from mailgate.mcimail.com (mailgate.mcimail.com [166.38.40.3]) by gatekeeper.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA22102; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:12:59 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate.mcimail.com id ab10483; 28 Aug 95 16:13 WET Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 11:00 EST From: Mike Moore <0007106488@mcimail.com> To: tariqas Subject: Re: Yowwee! nabbed again! Message-Id: <15950828160051/0007106488PJ4EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > To answer about destroying ideals (which was not directed to you, unless >you are now advocating these methods) is Yes I would never destroy anothers' >ideal. There is that wonderful story of the robber who attacked the wise man >walking through the forest in India. The wise man pulled out some jewlels and >gave them to the robber and said "But is that all you want, is your ideal so >small?" Eventually this robber took the wise mans advise and became a better >robber and then became the leader of a band of robbers and continually became >a greater and greater robber. Eventually, of course, he graduated to become >the great protector and saviour of all of India because he continually >followed a greater and greater ideal. ---snip---- > love Asha Well Asha, This is an admirable principle however, I think that we need to pick and choose where to apply it. Twice, when the Jewish tribes broke agreements, the Prophet released them from the imman. (Is imman the right word here? ) On the third time when a particular Jewish tribe defected to the Quraysh and nearly cost the lives of all the muslims, he loped off their heads. He did not try to raise their ideals. -Michael- From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 08:28:45 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29258; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:28:49 -0400 Received: from access5.digex.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29231; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:28:47 -0400 Received: (from tbear@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA04870 ; for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:28:46 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:28:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Abdkabir To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: re: Praising in Islam... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Ray, thanks very much for the kind words, but I think you may be confusing me with somebody else, Kabir Helminski perhaps? I don't know anything about a "40 day program," and I don't recall every encouraging you one-on-one before. But again thanks for the nice words. PS - For anybody's information, I am not a sheik, nor a murshid, not a muqqadam, have no desire to be, ever. Have *no* special mandate or mission to speak as an authority for or represent anybody else, either. Just another list participant putting in my 2 cents. Somebody referred to me as a "Sheik" in a joking manner, but I think this is getting taken seriously by some people. Lists like this seem to offer a new medium for the telephone game we played as kids, when we whispered a message in somebody's ear, they passed it on to somebody who whispered it to another, and so on, and the message in the end gets entirely distorted. From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 08:37:21 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05277; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:37:24 -0400 Received: from access5.digex.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05247; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:37:22 -0400 Received: (from tbear@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA06209 ; for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:37:22 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:37:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Abdkabir To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shaykh Nazim In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 27 Aug 1995, Ray Levesque wrote: > >Being still fairly new to this group, it is surprising to me to see > >disparaging remarks about Jesuits and "the c word". Does not tolerance and > >understanding of others lie at the heart of Sufism? > > I don't believe the Jesuits were disparaged -- they have excellent training > in certain useful ways of education. I am indebted to some of their > education myself. But they do have a certain pattern which is recognizable: > not *bad*, but not always appropriate. I might add that not only Voltaire but the very spiritual, great mystic and genius Pascal got into it pretty ferociously against the Jesuits. But not all Jesuits or their procedures are bad, just as even Jesus said some good things about the Pharisees (they "upheld the Law," etc.) > As to the "c" word, maybe it's time someone "calls it like they sees it." > This is the work the prophets. If Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed (pbut) had been > all *tact*, we would likely not be following their examples... Very well put! Al hamdu lillah! > It may well be that tolerance and understanding of others lie at the heart > of Sufism, but I must ask of my self how close or far *I* am from the heart > of Sufism. > > What gives us (tariqas) our personality? It is this admixture of followers, > leaders, prophets, novices, curious and smug, -- all in one email reflector. > Like the saying goes, you can pick your friends but not your relatives.... > > Your relative, > Ray > > Beautifully put Ray! From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 08:41:35 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08063; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:41:38 -0400 Received: from access5.digex.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08039; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:41:36 -0400 Received: (from tbear@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA07363 ; for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:41:36 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:41:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Abdkabir To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shaykh Nazim In-Reply-To: <199508272106.OAA21995@desiree.teleport.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 27 Aug 1995, Paul Bergner wrote: > We have a hadiith from our Prophet, peace be upon him, that if someone > speaks ill of another, and it is true, they are a backbiter. If it is > false, they are a slanderer. > If you take this hadith literally without qualification, which is something Wahabis do with the Koran, then many a great Sufi sheik who has criticized false sheiks is in big trouble. There are hadiths that also compel us to point out faslehood and wolves in sheep clothing also. From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 08:54:40 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17704; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:54:43 -0400 Received: from access5.digex.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17664; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:54:41 -0400 Received: (from tbear@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA09266 ; for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:54:41 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:54:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Abdkabir To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shaykh Nazim In-Reply-To: <199508280026.AA17682@world.std.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 27 Aug 1995, James McCaig wrote: > All well and good, I was still surprised and with my limited knowledge of > the Prophets, their lack of tact is unknown to me. > > Just a sincere question (I'm not trying to be a wise guy): do you think Jesus, a prophet, was acting tactfully when he threw the moneychangers out of the temple? This incident from the Bible is unknown to you? I suspect the Pharisees or their bankers in the temple did not find Jesus very tactful for acting this way. From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 10:08:26 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22802; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 14:08:28 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22768; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 14:08:26 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 14:08:26 -0400 Message-Id: <199508281808.AA22768@world.std.com> Received: from line106.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 14:19:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Shaykh Nazim Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: At 12:54 PM 8/28/95 -0400, you wrote: > >On Sun, 27 Aug 1995, James McCaig wrote: > >> All well and good, I was still surprised and with my limited knowledge of >> the Prophets, their lack of tact is unknown to me. >> > > >Just a sincere question (I'm not trying to be a wise guy): do you think >Jesus, a prophet, was acting tactfully when he threw the moneychangers out >of the temple? This incident from the Bible is unknown to you? I suspect >the Pharisees or their bankers in the temple did not find Jesus very >tactful for acting this way. > The exercise of tact implies a certain measured response. If one has the power to raise Lazarus from the dead and to work other baffling miracles, it would seem the moneychangers could be grateful for the tact shown by the Master, who might have brought the temple down on their heads. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 05:00:32 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07715; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:05:12 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07618; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:05:08 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx03-21.teleport.com (ip-pdx03-21.teleport.com [204.119.60.149]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA01893 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:05:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199508281905.MAA01893@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: yunust@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:00:32 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: yunust@teleport.com (Earl Torrey) Subject: Propasal for New Mail list Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: A I would interested in finding out if there is interest in forming a seperate mailing list for those who are interested in exchanging views from the heart on sufism an life;that is not Islamic orinted. I am in no way putting down the faith of many sincere muslims but if is not my faith. I have found that I am interested in reading the messages from the Sufi Movement and a few others but quite frankly with all respect many of the beleifs are those of Islam and I feel this mail list is dedicated in fact to spreading the beliefs of Islam which is fine but not what I am interested in. I hope I have not offended anyone, if I have I am very sorry. Blessings's From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 06:33:29 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22375; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:33:49 -0400 Received: from diamond.sierra.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22318; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:33:43 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME ([204.94.232.136]) by diamond.sierra.net with SMTP id AA12472 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:33:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199508282033.AA12472@diamond.sierra.net> X-Sender: frank@sierra.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:33:29 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: frank@sierra.net (Tanzen Frank Gaude) Subject: Re: Shaykh Nazim Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >At 12:54 PM 8/28/95 -0400, you wrote: >> >>On Sun, 27 Aug 1995, James McCaig wrote: >> >>> All well and good, I was still surprised and with my limited knowledge of >>> the Prophets, their lack of tact is unknown to me. >> >>Just a sincere question (I'm not trying to be a wise guy): do you think >>Jesus, a prophet, was acting tactfully when he threw the moneychangers out >>of the temple? This incident from the Bible is unknown to you? I suspect >>the Pharisees or their bankers in the temple did not find Jesus very >>tactful for acting this way. > >The exercise of tact implies a certain measured response. If one has the >power to raise Lazarus from the dead and to work other baffling miracles, it >would seem the moneychangers could be grateful for the tact shown by the >Master, who might have brought the temple down on their heads. Well, James, you have hit the essence of what I understand, know as Sufism Universal. To me, Sufism has nothing to do with spreading the word of a special philosophy or practice, but is always putting the welfare of others ahead of oneself. From there we find just who and what we are, whence we come, experience union. I find that those who try to change another's belief or interfere with their culture end in argument and disagreement. And as Rumi is reported to have written, "One does not teach by diagreement." Here are the personal OBJECTIVES OF THIS SUFI: 1. To realize and spread the knowledge of unity, the religion of love and wisdom, so that the bias of faiths and beliefs may of itself fall away, the human heart may overflow with love, and all hatred caused by distinctions and differences may be removed. 2. To discover the light and power latent in humanity, the secret of all religion, the power of mysticism, and the essence of philosophy, without interfering with customs or beliefs. 3. To help to bring the world's two opposite poles, East and West, close together by the interchange of thought and ideals; that universal relationship may form of itself, and people may meet with people beyond narrow national and racial boundaries. You can see that "Islamic Sufis" will find it difficult to understand, much less know, what a person like me is all about, have little interest in the teachings of the East, e.g. Buddhism and Hinduism, or for that matter, Christianity or Judaism. Sufis don't try to convert anyone to their religion of Islam, do they? Islam is simply one of many valid religions. As I understand it, there is only "religion", the unswerving progress in the right direction towards the ideal, which fulfills the life's purpose of every soul. From this one can conclude each person has his own unique "religion". Many of us define religion as the relationship of finite to infinite. From such, true freedom develops. It would appear that Middle East has lots to learn about East and West just as we have of them. Love, harmony and beauty in the coming seconds, days, years, Tanzen of Lake Tahoe California USA From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 06:53:35 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09026; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:53:44 -0400 Received: from diamond.sierra.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08980; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:53:42 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME ([204.94.232.136]) by diamond.sierra.net with SMTP id AA14806 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:53:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199508282053.AA14806@diamond.sierra.net> X-Sender: frank@sierra.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:53:35 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: frank@sierra.net (Tanzen Frank Gaude) Subject: Re: Propasal for New Mail list Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >I would interested in finding out if there is interest in forming a seperate >mailing list for those who are interested in exchanging views from the heart >on sufism an life;that is not Islamic orinted. I am in no way putting down the >faith of many sincere muslims but if is not my faith. I have found that I am >interested in reading the messages from the Sufi Movement and a few others but >quite frankly with all respect many of the beleifs are those of Islam and I feel >this mail list is dedicated in fact to spreading the beliefs of Islam which is >fine but not what I am interested in. You certainly have a point... on the other hand, is it not good that we get to hear the thoughts and beliefs of others? I find the Muslin point of view interesting; I only ask that they find other points of views equally as interesting as their own! Understanding just what "tact" is and not assuming you already know starts a ball rolling. Getting control of ego-self, thinking of another's feelings goes a long way to bringing peace not only to others but to yourself. Is not Sufism all about love, Love, and LOVE? I would join another mailing list but also stay with this one. This is the "firing line", my brothers and sisters, everywhere throughout the universe. Bismillah ir-raqhman ir-raheem! In the name of THE absolute birther, who IS mercy and compassion, Tanzen of Tahoe From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 05:13:32 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22856; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:13:49 -0400 Received: from iconz.co.nz by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22825; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:13:45 -0400 Received: from ahmad.internet.co.nz (ahmad.internet.co.nz [202.36.39.31]) by iconz.co.nz (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA00841 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:13:31 +1200 Message-Id: <199508282113.JAA00841@iconz.co.nz> X-Sender: ahmad@iconz.co.nz (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:13:32 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: ahmad@iconz.co.nz Subject: Re: 'Sheikh'Abd Kabir Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >>Is this the sort of thing followers of Sheik Nazim do or approve of when >>somebody says unpleasant things about them? Given the deafening silence >>from his followers to this line above, I think I know the answer to my >>question. Assalamualaikum For the record I am not worthy to be a mureed of Sheikh Nazim, Sh Hisham. To mureeds of any tariqa, their love for Allah, the Prophet ( S.A.W) and their sheikh is beyond the love for themselves, their parents and their family. To despise, insult their sheikh is without doubt a very very serious matter. Before you start degrading Sheikh Nazim or Sheikh Hisham, look at ourselves. Are we worthy to be a judge, 'to throw the first stone'.? ahmed, New Zealand. > > > > From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 05:18:35 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26536; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:18:51 -0400 Received: from iconz.co.nz by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26480; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:18:45 -0400 Received: from ahmad.internet.co.nz (ahmad.internet.co.nz [202.36.39.31]) by iconz.co.nz (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA01316 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:18:34 +1200 Message-Id: <199508282118.JAA01316@iconz.co.nz> X-Sender: ahmad@iconz.co.nz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:18:35 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: ahmad@iconz.co.nz Subject: Re: Shaykh Nazim Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > >The exercise of tact implies a certain measured response. If one has the >power to raise Lazarus from the dead and to work other baffling miracles, it >would seem the moneychangers could be grateful for the tact shown by the >Master, who might have brought the temple down on their heads. WELL SAID. To equate oneself with Jesus.... well we now know.. ahmed From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 14:58:14 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12411; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 18:58:15 -0400 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12397; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 18:58:13 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA10846 for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 18:58:14 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 18:58:14 -0400 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <950828185813_85578023@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Yowwee! again! Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: re: Mike Moor's story about how the Prophed (peace be upon him) ended up loping of the heads of some troublemakers. So you advise trying twice and then loping off thier heads? Oh well, at least thier ideal wasn't burst by the Prophet (peace be upon him) only their heads. Guess that shows what is most important. -- From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 09:25:26 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09800; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:33:37 -0400 Received: from halon.sybase.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09782; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:33:34 -0400 Received: from sybase.com (sybgate.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA18866; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:32:51 -0700 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA13163; Mon, 28 Aug 95 16:34:55 PDT Received: by serii.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA21376; Mon, 28 Aug 95 16:25:26 PDT Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 16:25:26 PDT From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9508282325.AA21376@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Announcing... Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Haqqani Homepage now available in seven languages, with gratitude to Abdussalam Romanowski and his wife Mathi: URL: http://www.best.com/~informe/mateen/haqqani.html Haqqani Foundation Homepage As-salaamu alaikum Choose your language by clicking with the mouse on the underligned text to access the next level. o Bulgarian o English o French o Japanese o Polish o Russian o Spanish From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 15:50:48 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21205; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:49:00 -0400 Received: from watson.Princeton.EDU by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21163; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:48:58 -0400 Received: by watson.princeton.edu (MX V4.1 VAX) id 9; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:50:48 EDT Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:50:48 EDT From: mromanowski@watson.princeton.edu To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <00995908.08F6ABAA.9@watson.princeton.edu> Subject: Proposal for a New Maillist Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, dear Friends: I was a bit surprized to find someone interested in Sufism, but unwilling to have anything to do with Islam. The Sufis believe in the unity of all religions, but their teahcings are deeply rooted in the Moslem tradition. To separate Sufism and Islam would therefore be quite inappropriate, I think. Islam is what gave Sufism its strong foundation and made it possible for Muslims to uncover their inner selves. Perhaps the person who wants a Sufi discussion group with no mention of Islam should consider joining a theosophy mailing list... Greetings. Abdussalam From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 16:16:10 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08608; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:16:11 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08587; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:16:10 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:16:10 -0400 Message-Id: <199508290016.AA08587@world.std.com> Received: from line171.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:27:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Sufi Movement & Islam (part 1) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Sisters and Brothers, With all the conversation and talk of unrest with the group, it has occurred to me that it might be interesting to all to know the position of the International Sufi Movement on the Prophet and Islam. The message is broken into several parts for those who object to long postings. These are the words of teh founder of tehr International Sufi Movement, Hazrat Inayat Khan and tyhey are lovingly and respectfully submitted. MOHAMMED MOHAMMED IS the only one among the prophets the account of whose life is to be found in history. Born of the family of Ishmael, Mohammed had in him the prophetic heritage, and before him the purpose to be fulfilled, which Abraham had prophesied in the Old Testament. The Prophet became an orphan in childhood, and knew what it was to be without the tender care of a mother and without the protection of a father. And this experience was the first preparation for the child who was born to sympathize with the pain of others. He showed a sense of responsibility even in his boyhood, when looking after his cows. A cowherd came and said, 'I will look after your herd, and you may go to the town and enjoy yourself And then you must take charge of my cows, and I will go there for a time.' Young Mohammed said, 'No, I will take charge of your herd. You may go, but I will not leave my charge.' The same principle was shown all through his life. Some say that once, others say twice, others say three times, a miracle happened: that the breast of the Prophet was cut open by the angels, and that they took something away, and instantly his breast was healed. What was it? It was the poison which is to be found in the sting of the scorpion and the teeth of the serpent; it is the same poison which exists in the heart of man. All manner of prejudice, hatred, or bitterness in the form of envy and jealousy, are the minor expressions of this poison which is hidden in the heart of man. And when this poison is removed, then there remains the serpent with its beauty and wisdom, but without its poisonous teeth; and so it is with man. Man meets with hardships in life, sometimes too hard to stand for the moment, but often such experiences become like higher initiations in the life of the traveler on the path. The heart of man which is the shrine of God, once purified of that poison, becomes the holy abode where God Himself resides. As a youth Mohammed traveled with his uncle when he went to Syria on a business trip; and he learned the shortcomings of human nature, which have great scope in the world of business; he found out what profit means, what loss means, and what both mean in the end. It gave him a wider outlook on life, when he saw how eager people are to profit by the loss of others, and that human beings behave no better in this world than the large and small fishes in the water who prey upon one another. When the time came to defend the country against a powerful enemy, young Mohammed stood shoulder to shoulder with the young men of his land to defend his people in their terrible strife. His sincerity in friendship and the honesty of his dealings endeared him to all, both far and near, who called him by the name of Amin, which means trusty, or trustworthy. His marriage with Khatija showed him a man of devotion, a man of affection; an honorable man as a husband, as a father, and as a citizen of the town he lived in. Then came the time of contemplation, the time of fulfillment of that promise which his soul had brought into the world. There came moments when life seemed sad, in spite of all the beauty and comfort it could offer. He then sought refuge from that depression in solitude. Sometimes for hours, sometimes for days or weeks, sitting in the mountains of Gar-e Hira, he tried to see if there was anything else to be seen, if there was anything else to be heard, or to be known. Patient as Mohammed was, he continued in the search after truth. At last he began to hear a word of inner guidance, 'Cry out the sacred name of Thy Lord'; and as he began to follow this advice, he found the echo of the word which his heart repeated in the whole of nature; it seemed as if the wind repeated the same name, as if the sky, the earth, the moon, and the planets, all said the same name that he was saying. When once he was in tune with the Infinite, realizing his soul to be one, within and without, the call came, 'Thou art the man; go forward into the world and carry out Our command; glorify the name of God; unite those who are separated; waken those who are asleep, and harmonize one with the other, for in this lies the happiness of man.' Often Khatija found that Mohammed had covered himself with a mantle, so that he might not see himself, trembling at the sight of the responsibility that was thrown upon him. But she constantly told him, 'You are the man, a man so kind and true, so sincere and devoted, forgiving and serving. It is your task to perform this work; fear not, you are destined for it by the Almighty; trust in His great power, and in the end success will be yours.' When Mohammed gave his message, however, to his surprise, not only his enemies but the friends who were near and dear to the Prophet turned against him, and would not listen to the teaching of a new gospel. In spite of the insults, the harm and injury they caused him and those who listened to him, he still continued, although exiled from home three times; and proved ) in the end, as every real prophet must prove, that truth alone is the conqueror, and to truth belongs all victory. Excerpted from "THE UNIVERSALITY OF RELIGIOUS IDEALS" by Hazrat Inayat Khan, founder of the International Sufi Movement. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 10:16:18 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14816; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:24:36 -0400 Received: from halon.sybase.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14757; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:24:31 -0400 Received: from sybase.com (sybgate.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA00405; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:23:41 -0700 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA23496; Mon, 28 Aug 95 17:25:46 PDT Received: by serii.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA21421; Mon, 28 Aug 95 17:16:18 PDT Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 17:16:18 PDT From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9508290016.AA21421@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Sufi Movement & Islam (part 1) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: May Allah bless you for such a beautiful description of our liege-lord, master and mainstay, the Beloved of the Merciful, Muhammad,peace and blessings be forevermore on him, his family his Companions and those who love and respect him, up to the end of time. continue...! --taher From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 16:25:13 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15389; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:25:15 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15356; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:25:13 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:25:13 -0400 Message-Id: <199508290025.AA15356@world.std.com> Received: from line171.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:36:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Sufi Movement & Islam (part 2) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Sisters and Brothers, With all the conversation and talk of unrest with the group, it has occurred to me that it might be interesting to all to know the position of the International Sufi Movement on the Prophet and Islam. The message is broken into several parts for those who object to long postings. These are the words of the founder of the International Sufi Movement, Hazrat Inayat Khan and they are lovingly and respectfully submitted. THE GOD OF ISLAM In every period there were people who held the idea of a formless God. This idea was called Islam, literally 'peace'; sometimes it disappeared and then it reappeared during the time of the different prophets. It materialized fully during the time of Mohammed, when a nation was formed which became the custodian of a religion whose main spirit was this idea; and this religion was called by the same name: Islam. Proof of this fact can be found in the name of the holy city Dar-e Salaam, that is Gate of Salaam, or Islam, which is known in the West as Jerusalem. Thus this name existed long before the coming of Mohammed, but in the period of the Prophet Mohammed's message especially, great stress was put upon the idea of a formless God. It is difficult for man to make God intelligible without giving Him a form; and yet a step higher in God-realization is to make Him intelligible beyond the limit of form. Therefore in Islam God was made intelligible by His attributes. He was conceived of as Creator, as Father, as Mother, as Sustainer, as Judge, as Forgiver, as the Source and the Goal of this whole manifestation, as the One who is always with His creatures, within them, outside them, who notices all their feelings, thoughts, and actions, who draws the line of man's fate, before whom man must appear to give his account is the God of Islam, Islam believed in one only God, who has many attributes but is yet beyond any attributes; invisible and beyond the comprehension of man, almighty, incomparable, no one save He having any power beside Him, the Knower of all things and pure from all impurities, free from all things and yet never far from them, all abiding in Him and He living in all. The whole essential teaching of Islam, which is called Kalamat, tends to explain clearly the oneness of God; and yet the attributes are suggested, not in order to explain God, but with a view to making God intelligible to the human mind. These attributes form what is called Sifat, the external part of God which is intelligible to man; but that part of the divine Being which is hidden under attributes and which cannot be intelligible to the human mind is called Zatt, which means the real Being. The whole tendency of Islam has been to disentangle man's heart from such thoughts as limit and divide God, and to clear man's heart from duality which is the nature of this illusory world, bringing him to that at-one-ment with God which has been the real aim and intention of every religion. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 16:30:55 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20054; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:30:56 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20033; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:30:55 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:30:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199508290030.AA20033@world.std.com> Received: from line171.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:41:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Sufi Movement & Islam (part 3) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Sisters and Brothers, With all the conversation and talk of unrest with the group, it has occurred to me that it might be interesting to all to know the position of the International Sufi Movement on the Prophet and Islam. The message is broken into several parts for those who object to long postings. These are the words of the founder of the International Sufi Movement, Hazrat Inayat Khan and they are lovingly and respectfully submitted. FORMS OF ISLAMIC WORSHIP Islamic worship shows an improvement upon the older forms of worship in human evolution, for Islam prefers nature to art and sees in nature the immanence of God. The call of the Muezzin to prayer before sunrise, and his call when the sun is at its zenith; his call at sunset, the prayers in the afternoon, in the early evening and at midnight, all suggest to the seer that, while worshipping God, a revelation was sought from Him through the tongue of nature. It is said in the Qur'an, 'Cry aloud the name of thy Lord, the most beneficent, who hath by His nature's skillful pen taught man what he knew not,' which means: who has written this world like a manuscript with the pen of nature. If one- desires to read the Holy Book, one should read it in nature. There are several suras which support this thought. As is said in the Qur'an, 'By the night when it covers, by the day when it brightens, by what created the male and female, verily diversity is natural; the very covering and brightening of the light in nature and the difference between male and female, show that our aims should be diverse. The laws of cleanliness are strictly observed in Islam; and no one is to offer prayer without an ablution, which is taught as a preparatory part of his worship. The worship of Islam contains a universal code of humility: that the customs existing in all parts of the world of bowing and bending and prostrating are all devoted to the one Being, who alone deserves it, and to no one else. There is beauty in these customs. Man is the most egoistic being in creation; he keeps himself veiled from God, the perfect Self within, by the veil of his imperfect self which has formed his false ego. But by the extreme humility with which he stands before God and bows and bends and prostrates himself before the almighty Being, he makes the highest point of his presumed being, the head, touch the earth where his feet are, and thus in time he washes off the black stains of his false ego, and the light of perfection gradually manifests. Only then does he stand face to face with his God, the idealized Deity, and when the ego is absolutely crushed, then God remains within and without, in both planes, and none exists save He. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 16:33:19 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21770; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:33:21 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21741; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:33:19 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:33:19 -0400 Message-Id: <199508290033.AA21741@world.std.com> Received: from line171.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:45:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Sufi Movement & Islam (part 4) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Sisters and Brothers, With all the conversation and talk of unrest with the group, it has occurred to me that it might be interesting to all to know the position of the International Sufi Movement on the Prophet and Islam. The message is broken into several parts for those who object to long postings. These are the words of the founder of the International Sufi Movement, Hazrat Inayat Khan and they are lovingly and respectfully submitted. THE DUTIES OF THE FAITHFUL IN ISLAM There are four duties of the faithful taught in Islam. The number four mystically signifies squareness and balance. The first is Salat, the prayers which are said five times a day; the continual balance between work and rest, and rest especially in God, in whom is the only rest of every soul. Life in the world is such that it absorbs every moment of man's time, and the innate yearning for peace of every soul is never satisfied. Therefore to pray five times a day is not too much, considering how far life in the world removes a soul from God. To my mind, if it were a hundred times a day it would be too little. The second is Zakat charity. However pious and godly a person may be, however much time of his life he devotes to piety, he cannot deserve the blessing of God unless he is charitable, for charity is the only test of selflessness. All love and friendship are proved by service and sacrifice, and to the extent one is able to do this, one is selfless. And self being the only barrier that stands between man and God, charity is the only means to break down that barrier, in order that man may come face to face with God. Once someone asked the Prophet, 'Who is the most blessed, the prayerful, the one who fasts, the pilgrim, or the charitable one?' The Prophet answered, 'The charitable one, for he can pray and build a mosque for others to pray in; he can fast and help those who fast by giving them rest and peace, by providing for the families that depend on them for maintenance; he can go on pilgrimage and send many on pilgrimage. Therefore all these four blessings are included in the charitable one.' The third duty is Roza, fasting. Man is so dependent on food that even in his infancy, when he is an angel, a king in himself, he hungers after food. This shows that what man needs most in life is food. He will give his diamonds and gold and all his treasure when there is lack of bread. Therefore abstaining from food is like abstaining from the dearest thing in life, and sacrificing all comfort, joy, rest, and happiness. As renunciation of lower things is the only means of attaining higher objects, there can be no better means to attain spiritual life than fasting. Fasting crushes not only the appetite, but the root of all desire that binds the soul, which is the bird of paradise, to earth's lower regions. Jesus Christ went into the desert and fasted for forty days, and at the end of his fast, he conquered the temptations of the devil. The fourth duty of the faithful is Hajj, or pilgrimage. It is said in the Qur'an that Abraham, the father of the nations and the fountain from which such streams as Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed came, had offered a prayer when leaving his son Ishmael in the barren desert of Arabia. His heart was broken, and there came forth from it a prayer, 'O Lord, bless this land, that it may become a center of attraction to the whole world.' And so it happened in the course of time that the Word of God was born again among the descendants of Ishmael, Mohammed who glorified the name of the Lord of Abraham aloud; this was heard from the depths of the earth to the summit of heaven, and reechoed from the North to the South Pole; it shook the nations and stirred up races, and so pierced the hearts of men that this desert which bore no fruit, no treasure of any kind, which had no beauty of scenery, no charm of climate, became a center of attraction for numberless souls; and they came from all parts of the world and assembled in that land of bliss, king and pauper standing shoulder to shoulder, both recognizing the equality of men in the Presence of God. The strong and weak, rich and poor, high and low, civilized and uncivilized, all come year by year on pilgrimage to Mecca in this land; they all are clad in one piece of cloth, that all may look alike to show before God and humanity the equality of the human brotherhood. This is Hajj. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 16:35:37 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23877; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:35:40 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23840; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:35:37 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:35:37 -0400 Message-Id: <199508290035.AA23840@world.std.com> Received: from line171.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:47:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Sufi Movement & Islam (part 5) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Sisters and Brothers, With all the conversation and talk of unrest with the group, it has occurred to me that it might be interesting to all to know the position of the International Sufi Movement on the Prophet and Islam. The message is broken into several parts for those who object to long postings. These are the words of the founder of the International Sufi Movement, Hazrat Inayat Khan and they are lovingly and respectfully submitted. THE FOUR GRADES OF KNOWLEDGE IN ISLAM In Islam there is no caste, as the message was meant to unite humanity in one brotherhood, and yet it was found necessary to train individuals according to their evolution in life. A training was given in four grades, namely Shariat, Tariqat, Haqiqat, and Marefat. Since the world of Islam became engaged in national and social affairs, the religious authorities held on to Shariat only, and a few pious ones to Tariqat. It was the latter who sought the door of the Sufi, wanting an initiation into the inner light which was contained in the two remaining grades, Haqiqat and Marefat. Two immediate disciples of the Prophet, Ali and Siddiq, were initiated by the Prophet, and they became the great masters of the inner teachings of the knowledge of God. The Sufis who lived at the same time as the Prophet were benefited by his presence and the inspiration they gained in Sufism, which is soon reached through the path of Shariat, Tariqat, Haqiqat, and Marefat. Shariat means the law which is necessary for the generality to observe, in order to harmonize with one's surroundings and with one's self within. Although the religious authorities of Islam have limited this law to restrictions, yet in a thousand places in the Qur'an and Hadith one can trace how the law of Shariat is meant to be subject to change, in order to suit the time and place. The law of Shariat, unlike any other religious law, deals with all aspects of life and that is why the Prophet of Islam had personally to experience all aspects of life. The Prophet as an orphan, as a warrior, as a politician, as a merchant, as a shepherd, as a king, as a husband, as a father, as a brother, as a son and a grandson, had to play different parts in various aspects of life in the world before he was ready to give this divine law. Tariqat means the understanding of law besides the following of it. It means that we must understand the cause behind everything we should do or not do, instead of obeying the law without understanding it. Those who are less evolved are supposed to have faith and to submit to the law. The law is for those whose intelligence does not accept things that cannot be explained by reason. Haqiqat means knowing the truth of our being and the inner laws of nature. This knowledge widens man's heart. When he has realized the truth of being, he has realized the one Being; then he is different from nobody, distant from no one, one with all. This is the grade in which religion ends and Sufism begins. Marefat means the actual realization of God, the one Being, when there is no doubt anywhere. When these four grades are accomplished, then Sufism comes into full play. Sufi comes from Saf meaning pure; not only pure from differences and distinctions, but even pure from all that is learnt and known. That is the state of God, the pure and perfect One. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 16:38:18 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25981; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:38:20 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25950; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:38:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:38:18 -0400 Message-Id: <199508290038.AA25950@world.std.com> Received: from line171.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:50:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Sufi Movement & Islam (part 6) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Sisters and Brothers, With all the conversation and talk of unrest with the group, it has occurred to me that it might be interesting to all to know the position of the International Sufi Movement on the Prophet and Islam. The message is broken into several parts for those who object to long postings. These are the words of the founder of the International Sufi Movement, Hazrat Inayat Khan and they are lovingly and respectfully submitted. THE IDEA OF HALAL AND HARAM IN ISLAM In Judaism there were very definite ideas about eating and drinking and about certain things being allowed and others forbidden; and the same ideas were perhaps developed even more in Islam. Those who have followed them have obeyed the law of religion, and those who have understood them have found the truth. Of edible things, in particular the flesh of certain beasts and birds and of certain creatures living in the water was forbidden. The only reason underlying this law was to protect man against eating anything that might hinder his spiritual evolution. In Islamic terms that which is lawful is called Halal and that which is unlawful Halam -As everything that man eats and drinks has its cold or warm effect on man's body, and to a certain extent on man's mind, so, especially with animal food, it is natural that man should partake of the quality of the animal he eats. The pig was particularly pointed out, both by Judaism and Islam, as a forbidden animal. Chief among many reasons was that if one compares the life of the pig with that of other animals it proves to be the most material, regardless of what it eats, blind in passion, and without the faculty of love and affection. Also the dog, the cat, in fact all carnivorous animals, were considered from the hygienic point of view Haram, unwholesome, and the people who have used their flesh as food have realized that its effect upon their bodies and minds was harmful. Then there was a law among Islamic and Judaic people that the animal which was used for food should be killed in a certain way which is called Zebah. People believed in this as a religious tenet; they did not understand the truth behind it, and refused to eat meat coming from people not of their religion. The reason for this law was that people should not eat animals or birds which had died a natural death, on the assumption that their flesh was as wholesome as that of freshly killed animals. And behind it there is a philosophy: that it is not only flesh that benefits man as a desirable food, but the life that still exists in the flesh is the secret of the vigor and freshness that flesh food gives to man; to eat it when the life is gone out of it is not the same; it is flesh, and yet there is no life in it. That is why it was made a religious custom, so that if the people did not understand its scientific and philosophical basis, at least they might follow it because it was their religion. Then intoxicating drinks were made Haram, especially during the time of the Prophet, who, it is related, accepted milk from an angel who had brought him two bowls, one of wine, the other of milk. Milk was considered, as it was by the Vedantists, as a Satva food, a food that gives rest, comfort, and wisdom, whereas wine was considered as a Tamas food, which gives momentary joy, pleasure, confusion, excitement, and happiness. It has been clear to all peoples in all ages, that the drinking of wine could have very bad results, which explains why it was forbidden. But added to this it is a philosophical fact that everything made of decayed substance, whether flesh, herb, or fruit, has lost the life that was in it; and the idea is to touch life in eating, in drinking, and in everything that is done, until one is able to touch the life eternal, which alone is the innate yearning of the soul. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 16:40:26 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27178; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:40:27 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27163; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:40:26 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:40:26 -0400 Message-Id: <199508290040.AA27163@world.std.com> Received: from line171.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:52:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Sufi Movement & Islam (part 7) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Sisters and Brothers, With all the conversation and talk of unrest with the group, it has occurred to me that it might be interesting to all to know the position of the International Sufi Movement on the Prophet and Islam. The message is broken into several parts for those who object to long postings. These are the words of the founder of the International Sufi Movement, Hazrat Inayat Khan and they are lovingly and respectfully submitted. NIMAZ Nimaz or prayer, is an inherent attribute in every soul. Whatever and whoever appears to man to be beautiful, superior, or precious, wins him; and he surrenders himself, conscious of his imperfection and dependence upon the object or being that has conquered him. This is why so many objects, such as the sun, moon, planets, animals, birds, spirits, and men, have been worshipped by different individuals, according to their evolution and to what appealed to them. But the inspired souls have realized from the first day of creation that all the objects and beings which caused the admirer to bow before them, are only many in appearance, but in existence they are one. Therefore the One is idealized as the supreme Being, as the Sovereign of both worlds, as God. While all appeared to worship many, they only worshipped the One, and they have always taught, in whatever religious form it may have been, the same truth, bowing to that One who alone deserves all worship. As there have been so many kinds of people in the world, and so many customs and manners, so one bowed differently from another. In one country people bowed down, in another country they folded their hands; in one country people knelt, in another they prostrated themselves. The Nimaz, therefore, was a form adopted to reconcile all and to combine all customs in one form of worship, that the people might not fight over the forms of worship when in reality they all worshipped One and the same God. In order that any object or affair should be fulfilled, its highest point should first touch the utmost depth. The soul which has descended on earth from its existence in the heavens, and which has temporarily supposed itself to be this material body, rises again to its former glory through laying the highest part of itself upon the ground. Also, the mechanism of the body is kept in order by the regular action of the breath through every part of the body, and by the regular circulation of the blood in all parts of the body; this can only be properly done by placing the highest Part of the body. the head. on the ground. Excerpted from "THE UNIVERSALITY OF RELIGIOUS IDEALS" by Hazrat Inayat Khan, founder of the International Sufi Movement. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 16:44:22 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29487; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:44:24 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29478; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:44:22 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:44:22 -0400 Message-Id: <199508290044.AA29478@world.std.com> Received: from line171.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:55:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Sufi Movement & Islam (part 1) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: At 05:16 PM 8/28/95 PDT, you wrote: > >May Allah bless you for such a beautiful description of our >liege-lord, master and mainstay, the Beloved of the Merciful, >Muhammad,peace and blessings be forevermore on him, his family >his Companions and those who love and respect him, up to the >end of time. > >continue...! > >--taher > Dear Mateen, I thought it was time to clear the air which can become a little stuffy in late August. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 11:27:25 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00433; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 21:29:17 -0400 Received: from lafn.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00386; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 21:29:14 -0400 Received: by lafn.org id AA09094 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Mon, 28 Aug 1995 18:27:25 -0700 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 18:27:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199508290127.AA09094@lafn.org> From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Propasal for New Mail list Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Yunust. I have posted on tariqas discussions re kabbalah, SO of the West, just plain weird things. I do not find it solely Islamic oriented. While I have genuine interest in Islamic customs and beliefs, I reserve my integrity to be unique and my acceptance or rejection of ideas posted here. If however you Yunus would like to establish another alternative forum with some established guidelines as distinct from Tariqas, I could find my way to check into it and participate from time to time. See you in the light Raqib > >I would interested in finding out if there is interest in forming a seperate >mailing list for those who are interested in exchanging views from the heart >on sufism an life;that is not Islamic orinted. I am in no way putting down the >faith of many sincere muslims but if is not my faith. I have found that I am >interested in reading the messages from the Sufi Movement and a few others but >quite frankly with all respect many of the beleifs are those of Islam and I feel >this mail list is dedicated in fact to spreading the beliefs of Islam which is >fine but not what I am interested in. > >I hope I have not offended anyone, if I have I am very sorry. > >Blessings's > > > -- q k From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 12:20:33 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09422; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:25:13 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09409; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:25:11 -0400 Received: from ip-pdx02-01.teleport.com (ip-pdx02-01.teleport.com [204.119.60.65]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA28739 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:25:07 -0700 Message-Id: <199508290225.TAA28739@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: yunust@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:20:33 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: yunust@teleport.com (Earl Torrey) Subject: Re: Proposal for a New Maillist Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: A >Assalamu alaikum, dear Friends: > >I was a bit surprized to find someone interested in >Sufism, but unwilling to have anything to do with >Islam. The Sufis believe in the unity of all religions, >but their teahcings are deeply rooted in the Moslem >tradition. To separate Sufism and Islam would therefore >be quite inappropriate, I think. Islam is what gave >Sufism its strong foundation and made it possible for >Muslims to uncover their inner selves. Perhaps the person >who wants a Sufi discussion group with no mention >of Islam should consider joining a theosophy mailing >list... > >Greetings. > >Abdussalam > > It is remarks like that prompted me to suggest a seperate mailing list to suggest that I am not willing to have anything to do with Islam is a flaming of the worst sort. It is also not at all based in fact and why many like myself have not participated in this list openly. Blessings' Earl Yunus Torrey _notice my legal middle name! From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Mon Aug 28 22:29:55 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12655; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:29:55 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:29:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199508290229.AA12655@world.std.com> To: tariqas-approval From: Majordomo@world.std.com Subject: APPROVE tariqas Reply-To: Majordomo@world.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- Roberto Calvet requests that you approve the following: subscribe tariqas digest If you approve, please send a message such as the following back to Majordomo@world.std.com (with the appropriate PASSWORD filled in, of course): approve PASSWORD subscribe tariqas digest If you disapprove, do nothing. Thanks! Majordomo@world.std.com From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 17:45:58 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28851; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:46:28 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28794; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:46:24 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-3 #8051) id <01HUMG4H2S8W95RA9F@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:45:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:45:58 -0500 (EST) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Subject: Re: Ibn `Arabi To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HUMG4H7IQA95RA9F@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 28-Aug-1995 10:34pm EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: re: Ibn `Arabi >Asalam wa alaykum, wa alaykum as-salam, > What you say about concerning the visions would be true if >everything experience that they had and interpretation of it was >infallible. That is why the grid of the shari`a acts as a protection against delusions. As Ibn `Arabi said, and Abdul Qadir before him (Discourse 17 in Futuh al-Ghayb): "A person who performs miracles but trangresses the Sunna is rejected and not to be trusted." Actually Ibn `Arabi mistrusted a person who performed miracles, period. As for the certainty of the vision, it has been phrased as a state higher than one's possession of certitude, namely: "When certitude possesses you," i.e. it is beyond you to acquire it or to change it! > To my knowledge, that it only true for the Prophets, >because their mission is to deliver the Shariah of Allah among other >thing, and this cannot be affected by any state. A prophet is <> (infallible), while a wali is <> (protected). A similar distinction applies to their respective kinds of inspiration. >To say that they >Awliyas can attain this perfect state would be saying that in asense >Prohpethood would be attainable, which it is not. Yes it is, "In a sense," but not under that name, which would be unacceptable, and not entailing infallibility, which would be also unacceptable. This has been explained by the Shaykh al- Akbar and Abdul Wahhab al-Sha`rani explained it further in his <> (Red Sulphur). It is a commonplace of Naqshbandi teachings. > It is given by >Allah, who choses that particular person to be a Prophet. If >Prophethood is attainable, than, if we carryout the logic, anybody >could attain it. The <> (Station of the Prophet) is certainly open to all of the Community. That is the whole point. As the Prophet's uncle al-`Abbas said: <> But there are <> (Abul Hasan al-Kharqani, who follows Bayazid in the Golden Chain). > I don't know how familiar you are with the mystics of other >religions and philosophies, but if you read some of Deny's, St. >Augustine's, Plato, or Philo's works i which they have written thier >experiences, they are very similar, almost exactly the same in some >cases, to the visions that some Muslim mystics and pholosophers hae >had. I disagree, as Ibn `Arabis' writings are infinitely more precise and illuminating, at least to me, than Augustine's or Plato's. But Theresa of Avila and Meister Eckhart do qualify as sufi reading, I heard, in the Mariyamiyya order. > I remember reading in one of your posts that the claim of the '>seal of the saints' was not only made by Ibn al Arabi , but by >others about themselves as well. This seems like a very odd statement >to be making, especially when each one of them is caiming something >that assuming supposedly nly one may have. Never mind. Stretch your standards and practice <>! You are going to go from one odd statement to another if you read the declarations of the saints about where they stand. - [Abdul Qadir:] "My foot is on the neck of all awliya" - [Ibn `Arabi:] "Not on my neck, but on my head!" - [Mawlani Khalid Baghdadi:] "Our *murids* have to have Abdul Qadir's level 70 times!" > I think that the main point of the post you might have >missed. What the scholar was trying to give an explanation of was the >flat out contradictory statements given by mystics about thier >vision In philosophy or in mathematics, if you "saw an error" in the textbook, chances are it is you who need to read again and think again. Why not approach the great awliya with the same caution? Chance are it is we who are misunderstanding them rather than they who are erring. No contradiction dear Jawad. Only poverty of imagination (ours). >It was similar to what Imam Rabbani said in his Maktubat, >that everything that you see you must check it with the Quran and >Sunna for they are for sure The Truth. He was repeating his shaykhs' warnings (see above). As for the name "mystics", it may or may not apply to some visionaries and people of charisms, but the people we are talking about were more "realists" than "mystics" and it is only for the poverty of the English language that Bayazid and Ibn `Arabi are still being called "mystics." > I don't know, I may be wrong, but please give your comments >and correct me where ever I made a mistake. Also, how much >credibility would you give for the mystical experience? Do you think >that it is subjective or objective? Never mind, I make more mistakes than you and may be wronger! As for your personal questions I wouldn't know. I suppose each has a duty to be truthful to one's unveiling no matter what the ignorant may do to them, however, one is not obliged to reveal it. This is referred to in the hadith: <> The highest saints are those whose actual position is completely undetected. That is why Ibn `Arabi considered the assertions of the "drunk" type indiscretions, although he himself is considered indiscrete by some later awliya! >Thank You. You're welcome, astaghfirullah. >Wa Salam u Alaykum. Wa alaykum as-salam. Blessings and Peace on the Prophet, his Family, and his Companions. Fouad Haddad Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 12:57:51 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12574; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:57:55 -0400 Received: from diamond.sierra.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12531; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:57:52 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME ([204.94.232.136]) by diamond.sierra.net with SMTP id AA21039 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:57:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199508290257.AA21039@diamond.sierra.net> X-Sender: frank@sierra.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:57:51 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: frank@sierra.net (Tanzen Frank Gaude) Subject: Re: Sufi Movement & Islam (part 1) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >Dear Sisters and Brothers, > >With all the conversation and talk of unrest with the group, it has occurred >to me that it might be interesting to all to know the position of the >International Sufi Movement on the Prophet and Islam. The message is broken >into several parts for those who object to long postings. These are the >words of the founder of the International Sufi Movement, Hazrat Inayat Khan >and they are lovingly and respectfully submitted. > >MOHAMMED Thanks, James, for the wonderful details regarding Islam. Much appreciated by all concerned with Sufi Universality. It would be further appreciated, if you have the material to post, to see what Hazrat Inayat Khan had to say about the Kahunas (Three Self Work), about Hinduism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, and other religions, known and unknown to us mureeds. Thanks again, Love, harmony and beauty: your obliged and faithful servant, Tanzen of Lake Tahoe California USA From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 14:01:11 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20421; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 00:09:24 -0400 Received: from halon.sybase.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20403; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 00:09:20 -0400 Received: from sybase.com (sybgate.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA23750; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 21:08:36 -0700 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA05356; Mon, 28 Aug 95 21:10:39 PDT Received: by serii.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA21621; Mon, 28 Aug 95 21:01:11 PDT Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 21:01:11 PDT From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9508290401.AA21621@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Excerpt: Imam Ja'fa as-Sadiq, Fifth Master of the Naqshbandi Golden Chain Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Sayiddina Ja'far as-Sadiq (r) - Fifth Master in the Naqshbandi Golden Chain =========================================================================== [Excerpted from the book, "The Naqshbandi Sufi Way: History and Guidebook of the Saints of the Golden Chain", Kazi, 1995, by Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, caliph of Grandshaykh Muhammad Nazim al-Haqqani.] "Sayyidina al-Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (as: may peace be upon him) was the son of Imam Muhammad bin al-Baqir son of al-Imam Zain al-'Abidin, son of al-Husayn, son of al-Imam Ali bin Abi Talib (as) who was born on the 8th of Ramadan of the year 83 Hijri. His mother was the daughter of al-Qassim (as), whose great grandfather was Abu Bakr as-Siddiq (r: may God be well-pleased with him). He spent his life in worship and acts of peity for the sake to God. He rejected all stations of position and fame in favor of isolation from the worldly life. (al-'uzla). That caused 'Umar bin Abil Muqdaam, one of his contemporaries, to say, "when I look at Ja'far bin Muhammad I see the lineage and the secret of Prophet Muhammad (s) in him." He inherited the secret of the Prophet (s: peace and blessings of God be on him) through two lineages from the Prophet (s): the secret of the Prophet (s) through 'Ali (as); and the secret of the Prophet (s) through Abu Bakr (r). Therefore in him the two lineages met and for that reason he was called "the Inheritor of the Station of Prophethood and the Station of the Veracity." In him were reflected the light of the knowledge and the secrets of Truth and Reality and that light shone forth and that gnosis was spread widely through him and from him during his lifetime. .... Sayiddina Ja'far said, "the best of that which I hope for of intercession is the intercession of Abu Bakr as-Siddiq (r)." He narrated also, "O God, You are my Witness that I love Abu Bakr and I love 'Umar and if it is not true what I am saying may God cut me off from the intercession of Sayiddina Muhammad (s)." He took the knowledge of hadith from two sources, from his father through Sayiddina 'Ali (as) and from his maternal grandfather al-Qassim. Then he supplemented his knowledge of hadith by sitting with the great scholars 'Urwa, 'Aata, Na'fi and Zuhri. The two Sufyans, Sufyan ath-Thawri and Sufyan bin Ayinah, Imam Malik, Imam Abu Hanifa, and al-Qattaan all narrated hadith through him, as did many others from later hadith scholars. He was an exegesist of Quran and a scholar of jurisprudence and he was one of the greatest jurists in Madinah. Sayyidina Ja'far acquired both the external religious knowledge as well as the internal. The latter was reflected in his many visions and miraculous powers, whose narrations would fill many pages in telling. .... A Miraculous Account of Sayiddina Ja'far (as) --------------------------------------------- Imam at-Tabari narrated from Wahb, "I heard al-Laith bin Sa'ad say 'I made the Pilgrimage in the year 113, and after I prayed the obligatory afternoon prayer I was reading some verses of the Holy Qur'an and I saw someone sitting beside me invoking God saying, 'Ya Allah, ya Allah...' repeatedly until he lost his breath. He then continued by saying 'Ya Hayy, Ya Hayy...' until he was again out of breath. He then raised his hands and said, 'O God, I have the desire to eat grapes, O God give me that. O God, my robe is becoming old and tattered, please grant me a new one.' Laith bin Sa'ad says that 'he didn't finish his words before a basket of grapes appeared in front of him, and at that time grapes were not in season. Beside the basket of grapes there appeared two extremely beautiful cloaks, the like of which I had never seen before.' I said, 'O my partner let me share with you.' He said, 'How are you a partner?' I replied, 'You were praying and I was saying 'amen.' Then Imam Ja'far said, 'then come and eat with me' and he gave me one of the two cloaks. Then he moved off until a man encountered him and said, 'O son of the Prophet (s), cover me because I have nothing but these tattered garments to cover me.' He immediately gave him the cloak that he just received. I asked the man, 'who is that?' He replied, 'that is the great Imam, Ja'far as-Sadiq.' I ran after him to find him but he had disappeared. This is only a sampling from many many ancedotes and stories of the miraculous powers of Ja'far as-Sadiq (r). From His Sayings ---------------- ... He said to Sufyan [ath-Thawri], "If you are upset by the tyranny of a king or other oppression that you witness, say 'there is no might and no power except with God' because it is the key of relief and one of the Treasures of Paradise." From his sayings also are "God, the Exalted and Glorious, revealed to this world, 'Serve the one who serves Me and tire the one who serves you.' He said, "Open your door of provision by giving donations and fence in your money with the payment of the obligatory poor due, and the best is he who wastes not, and planning is the foundation of your life, and to act prudently is the basis of intellect." And he said, "Whoever makes his parents sad has denied their rights on him." He said "the jurist are the trustees of the Prophet (s)." ... "No food is better than God-fear and there is nothing better than silence." "No enemy is more powerful than ignorance." "No illness is greater than to lie." And he said, "If you see something you don't like in your brother try to find from one to seventy excuses for him. If you couldn't find an excuse, say 'there might be an excuse but I don't know it.'" .... Sayiddina Ja'far passed away in ~770 CE/148 AH and he was buried in the general grave in the City of the Prophet (s), Madina, called the Everlasting Garden of Paradise (Jannat al-Baqi'a) in same grave as that of his father Muhammad al-Baqir and his grandfather Zain al-'Abidin and the uncle of his grandfather, al-Hasan bin 'Ali (r). ___________________________________________________________________ Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation url: http://www.best.com/~informe/mateen/haqqani.html [in 7 languages]. From tariqas-approval Mon Aug 28 17:15:04 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06520; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 03:15:38 -0400 Received: from carson-oms2.u.washington.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06457; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 03:15:16 -0400 Received: from carson.u.washington.edu by carson-oms2.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW95.07/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA08734; Tue, 29 Aug 95 00:15:05 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 00:15:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "L. Ila" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Imam Jafar, Sufi Movement and new list In-Reply-To: <9508290401.AA21621@serii.sybase.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: A asalaam-u-aleikum Thank you Mateen for the piece on Imam Jafar, may peace and blessings be upon him. I have always felt a special affinity for him and thus my youngest child is called Jafar. There are so many aspects of his teachings and character that are noteworthy, and he is particularly known for his advocacy of women's and children's rights, which has unfortunately been a blind spot for many if not most scholars. Thank you James McCaig for your generous offering (it may be some time before I reach the end of it:) As regards another list, it may sound like a good idea to some of you Sufis who have yet to come to terms with your Islamic identity. However I feel certain that you would soon find out how boring it is to engage in discourse with people who already agree with whatever you have to say. I have read with interest much from traditions other than Islam on this forum, and so I suspect that it is the topic of Islam which makes you uncomfortable rather than a lack of something else. I would suggest, while begging your pardon for my arrogance in doing so, that you instead face that which you fear and thereby grow in courage and self awareness. Please hear this as it is intended, a suggestion from the heart of your concerned sister and not debate or prosyletizing because I have no knowledge on which to base such activities. peace and blessings to all Lily From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 04:07:12 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11963; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:07:13 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11952; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:07:12 -0400 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:07:12 -0400 Message-Id: <199508291207.AA11952@world.std.com> Received: from line111.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 8:18:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Imam Jafar, Sufi Movement and new list Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Lily, What a fine, strong name you have given your son. No doubt he will be influenced by your selection and blessed. At 12:15 AM 8/29/95 -0700, you wrote: >As regards another list, it may sound like a good idea to some of you >Sufis who have yet to come to terms with your Islamic identity. > Here we come to the point of the International Sufi Movement. What we seek is Unity between religions. If one looks deeply into the message of the prophets of the six great world religions one finds Unity. It is one Message, sent by one God. Sufism, of course, predates all the religions and can be traced, in writing, in the Library of Congress, to Ancient Egypt 6,000 years before the coming of Christ. If anyone would like to research this fact, it will be my pleasure to provide references to point the way. This offer is open to serious scholars only and should not be undertaken lightly. We are blessed to have a scholar in the Sufi Center of Washington who speaks Arabic, Farsi, Greek, Erdu, Sanskrit, Russian, Turkish and, as he puts it, a little English. To get to the root of Sufism, great language ability is required, but a serious search will take the scholar to ancient Egypt and ancient Greece. The documents are in the library. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 09:46:33 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17676; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:46:33 -0400 Received: from kantti.helsinki.fi (kantti-fddi.Helsinki.FI) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17593; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:46:27 -0400 Received: from katk.helsinki.fi (katk.Helsinki.FI [128.214.79.2]) by kantti.helsinki.fi (8.6.12+Emil1.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA16360 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:46:15 +0300 Received: from KATK/SpoolDir by katk.helsinki.fi (Mercury 1.21); 29 Aug 95 16:48:15 EET Received: from SpoolDir by KATK (Mercury 1.21); 29 Aug 95 16:48:10 EET From: "Morteza Elmolhoda" Organization: University of Helsinki To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:48:06 EET DST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: ***Some words from Sheikh Nazim***** Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Message-Id: <1385D135A01@katk.helsinki.fi> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear members of the "Tariqas" In onnection with the latest discussions on Sheikh Nazim, I send the the Following words of him, with no comment: Our Grandsheikh is saying a good manner for all of us concerning the hadit= h: The value of every action is with its final outcome. Most important in Isl= am is not the beginning but the ending. We are Muslims now, but most importa= nt is to finish our life as muslims, to stay on the same way, not changing. All Awliya are looking to the end, the final position for everyone. Sheikh Abu Ahmed As-Sughuri was a big saint and for 40 years qutub of the universe. No one else has carried this for so long a time. It is a hea= vy job. If anyone was speaking in his presence against-another person, he would reply,"If he is bad, our character makes us worse. Don't speak." Everyone knows himself better than others. If we see one or two badnesses in others, how about in ourself? Abu Ahmed would continue, =ABLet us pray to our Lord let us all finish our lives in a good way.=BB Also if a person= was saying good praises about another, he would say, =ABOh my son, let us pray Allah makes our end on a right way and keeps that person as he is now on a good way.=BB This is a good adab we must practice, as often as we are meeting this situation. We must pray Allah makes our end on a good way. If we are on bad ways now, may He change us, and if we are on good ways now, may He keep us. As a teaching for everyone, the Prophet was praying, =ABO my Lord don't leave me in the hands of my ego.=BB If left to our nafs, destruction is re= ady for us. This is the best position and most lovely for servants to their Lo= rd to have such absolute humility. It is a rank no one will envy you for. Don= 't be angry at people; it means you look to yourself as better, and this is not humility. Sheikh Nazim El-Qubrusi En-Naqshbandi Mercy Oceans Book two pages 90-91 From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 12:00:31 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20713; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:01:32 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20668; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:01:31 -0400 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:01:31 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Propasal for New Mail list To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199508281905.MAA01893@desiree.teleport.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Earl Torrey wrote: > I would interested in finding out if there is interest in forming a seperate > mailing list for those who are interested in exchanging views from the heart > on sufism an life;that is not Islamic orinted. I am in no way putting down the That is precisely the intention of this list, whether or not it is achieved all the time is another story... > faith of many sincere muslims but if is not my faith. I have found that I am There are many non-mulsims among the members of tariqas. Tariqas serves as a meeting ground among muslims and non-muslims interested in the Sufi path. > interested in reading the messages from the Sufi Movement and a few others but There is a list called winged-heart which is oriented towards Inayat Khan style Sufism. I'm not sure if they are accepting new members now or not. Perhaps someone on the list could contact you with this information. > quite frankly with all respect many of the beleifs are those of Islam and I feel > this mail list is dedicated in fact to spreading the beliefs of Islam which is > fine but not what I am interested in. > This mail list is in NO WAY dedicated to spreading the beliefs of Islam. Members of the list, however, are free to share from their hearts whatever THEY feel they should. Since many list members are muslims, and many muslims feel obligated by their faith to spread the beliefs of Islam, such material will appear in our list. But it is NOT the function of this list to spread any particular beliefs (even my own, which are obviously the only correct ones :-) > I hope I have not offended anyone, if I have I am very sorry. > No offense taken. I appreciate your honesty in sharing. If members of the list are interested in forming a new list of the type you describe, i would be quite happy to publicize it in tariqas. However, I've got to wonder if such a list would be very active. As I mentioned, there is already a list called winged-heart, as well as newsgroups such as alt.sufi. A couple of years ago, I assisted in formation of a list specifically for muslims, who felt there was TOO LITTLE Islamic content in tariqas. That list never was nearly as active as tariqas. Please forgive all the ego that I have attached to the words I have spoken. It is hard for me to host this list without being "proud" of the work that "I" am doing -- to really accept the FACT that any success of this list isn't due to me, but, Insh'Allah, due to the function this list serves. Yours, habib rose host of tariqas P.S. If you want to share from the heart with people, it might be possible to do it in this list as well, even if you're not a card-carrying whatever. Insh'Allah (God Willing), people will respect you for it, and not attack your beliefs. And, if they share their own beliefs in response to yours, perhaps that can be seen as sharing rather than an attack. From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 08:06:19 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27117; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 12:06:26 -0400 Received: from access5.digex.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27031; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 12:06:22 -0400 Received: (from tbear@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA10142 ; for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 12:06:19 -0400 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 12:06:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Abdkabir To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Shaykh Nazim In-Reply-To: <199508282118.JAA01316@iconz.co.nz> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 29 Aug 1995 ahmad@iconz.co.nz wrote: > > > > >The exercise of tact implies a certain measured response. If one has the > >power to raise Lazarus from the dead and to work other baffling miracles, it > >would seem the moneychangers could be grateful for the tact shown by the > >Master, who might have brought the temple down on their heads. > It would seem they would be grateful, but, even if they knew he was capable of more destructive actions, it is unlikely that any resistance to their activities by Jesus was looked upon them as "tactful." From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 15:08:28 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19432; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:09:30 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19419; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:09:28 -0400 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:09:28 +0059 (EDT) From: Stuart Brown Subject: Re: Propasal for New Mail list To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: A On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Steve H Rose wrote: > Assalamu alaikum. > > P.S. If you want to share from the heart with people, it might be > possible to do it in this list as well, even if you're not a > card-carrying whatever. Insh'Allah (God Willing), people will respect > you for it, and not attack your beliefs. And, if they share their own > beliefs in response to yours, perhaps that can be seen as sharing rather > than an attack. > This is the thing that I have had to grapple with - That I can share from my heart and someone will find it offensive, That someone will share from theirheart and it offends my sensibility, That it seems that I may be willing to give the space to accept, listen, consider the feeling of others when I reply and when I read, but that I can never expect reciprocal treatment, and I have to accept that - Sometimes it reminds me of the purpose behind the shelling of Sarajevo in the early part of the war: the targets were those vestiges of a culture not that was necessarily Muslim, but rather the real enemy to those forces of darkness were the representations of a culture in which all were tolerated, even respected, together. That was the first target, then of course it would be easier to kill the Muslims, or whateveregroup was weaker. No group is free of this intolerance, claiming a religionor a mystical path does not remove it - in each person's heart it exists until we expand our hearts to accomodate the ocean - the ocean in a drop - and is that not what dhikr forces us to realize? I feel, know, as best I know Truth at present, that all this narrowness at either end, cannot accomodate the meaning of that Reality - and from that realization, from that place, we can meet. Can we try to do that now? Aqil From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 05:28:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27885; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:21:20 -0400 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27735; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:21:07 -0400 Received: from Saltspring.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0snWKd-0005Z8C; Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:28 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:28 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Re: Imam Jafar, Sufi Movement and new list Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > >asalaam-u-aleikum Lily > >it may sound like a good idea to some of you>Sufis who have yet to come to terms with your Islamic identity. I think that a new list might not be the issue here. Certainly I don't think that anyone is over re acting to that idea. I suggest first that we honor the past of the Tariqas List. The process of particpating with each of you has been very special for me. Secondly I want to suggest that one might be hard pressed to find either a Moslem, Jew, Christian or even an evolved Homan Being on this list. We are each obviouisly doing our best. Third I would like to suggest that none of us has an anawer for another. Fifth that the Pirs and Sheiks we have thus far had the opportunity to be aquinted with and who have been gracious enough to take us on are but a spark from an atom of the sun of knowledge and we each probnably with all our itellectual prowess have misinterpirted the main message they have tried to get across to us, and last but not least regarding our Jewish, Christian and or Islamic Identity or our Sufi Identity, if wee concerned ourself with a tender identity, an identity of poise, of grace, if we are becomeing at best but petals on a weed in paradise to please and than be tossed aside so all that which is Divine can smell the bouquet of its own creation, if we can but love and give up, if we can surrender to not being right and having the right way, and making other's wrong either by condescension and/or blatently then we have the basis for inspiration, the basis for being able to breathe with one another the basis of sharring our humanity. Love . Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 05:27:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27914; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:21:23 -0400 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27884; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:21:20 -0400 Received: from Saltspring.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0snWJo-0005YAC; Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:27 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:27 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Re: Propasal for New Mail list Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >The opportunity of studing Islam is one that I find extremely rich. The demeanor of many of those pretending to be Moslems on this list is disgusting. Jewels, however require patience, tolerance can only serve. Thank God for friends like Lily, Mustaffer, Habib, Hamsa and always A.N Dirkee. May God protect us from the feeding frenzy and temptation into excitement. May we place our attention on love, on that about Islam which is noble and beautiful, about the courage which is required to have faith about that which up lifts. May we bind our tongues and censor our writings which appear as childish flurries and get down to the business of sharring without arrogance that which we all hold as beautiful, may we aspire to serving honey and leave the vinigar for appetites one might find in the streets. Jabriel > ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 05:27:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28041; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:21:30 -0400 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28004; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:21:28 -0400 Received: from Saltspring.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0snWJs-0005Y4C; Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:27 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:27 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Re: 'Sheikh'Abd Kabir Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: May all the ill statements regarding any human being be forgiven. Let us now stop. If there is a charleton look into your own heart with compassion, and forgive yourself for you are what you see. It is all a dream. If you find darkness it is your darkness, go for the light, go for faith, go for love, and most important go for empowering rather than destroying your brother. Jabriel > >> >> >> > > > ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 05:27:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28177; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:21:40 -0400 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28098; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:21:36 -0400 Received: from Saltspring.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0snWJz-0005YCC; Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:27 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:27 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Re: Shaykh Nazim Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > >There are money changers in each of us. Give me the strength to turn over my own table and bnot look at my brothers or sisters. Let us forgive are selves as we ask for Allah's forgiveness. Let us let go of our meager iteelectual mediocrity in pursuit of our search for truth. If one persons truth is not ours and we find it intolerable let our responce be one of accomedation. May we each attend to the greater Gihad. May we each contain look within and enjoy the blessing of purification. Love Jabriel > ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 05:28:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28431; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:21:58 -0400 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28341; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:21:53 -0400 Received: from Saltspring.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0snWKI-0005YXC; Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:28 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:28 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Re: Proposal for a New Maillist Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Perhaps the person >who wants a Sufi discussion group with no mention >of Islam should consider joining a theosophy mailing >list... > >Assalamu alaikum Abdussalam There are enough loved Sheiks directly from the Islamic tradition who brought Sufism to non Islamic Audiances. Allah and an allegiance to Allah is the inherant right of all human beings. The debate as to wheather Suffism is Islamic and comes from an Egyptian Culture, or wheather it comes from Central Asia or wheather it is a context which has been close to all great religeons and might be said to be the kernal or hidden truth within each of them I do not think is the issue here. In fact Islam stands on the foundation of all of Adam's children. The Torah and The New Testimont make up a great share of the Holy Qu'ran. The questions regarding the Sunni and The She ite, the Ishmaile and the Wahhabbi, the four difrrent schools of Islam all have the same inherant right. One does not have to join a theosophy mailing list in my humble opinion to study about sufism. Many of the people on this list dare to call themselves Sufi. We all know better. Let us be tollerant. Love Jabiel > > >Greetings. > >Abdussalam > > > ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 05:28:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28730; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:22:20 -0400 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28688; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:22:17 -0400 Received: from Saltspring.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0snWKU-0005YtC; Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:28 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:28 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Re: Propasal for New Mail list Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > > >Peace be to all my brothers and sisters. May everything they resist be left for them to embrace and may their hearts melt the enemy, and may their strength carry them on their journey. Peace to my brothers and sisters and may they share what they see, their point of view, and see through each others eyes with understanding, peace be upon my brothers and sisters and may they prosper and be embraced in love. Jabriel > >> >> >> > >-- > >q > >k > > ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 10:24:53 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01143; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:25:23 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01112; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:25:20 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-3 #8051) id <01HUNEZYMTPS95RPSK@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:24:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:24:53 -0500 (EST) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Subject: What are angels? [excerpt] To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HUNEZYS8OI95RPSK@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 29-Aug-1995 03:19pm EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: What are angels? [excerpt] WHAT ARE ANGELS? ================ An excerpt from the Introduction of Shaykh Hisham Kabbani's forthcoming book at KAZI Publications (Chicago), <>. Angels are the hope of humanity. They are the source of light and the energy of creation. They are the beacons of every seeker, the oasis in every desert, the waves in every ocean, the spring of every river, the crystal in every diamond. They are the dew from heaven on every leaf. They are the life in every drop of blood in animate beings, the motion behind every living cell. They are the driving force of constellations and galaxies. They are the stars and suns and moons in every firmament. The universes swim in their orbits. They are the superpowers known by all traditions, beliefs, and philosophies. It is universally known, based on these sources, that God created the angels to carry out His orders and transmit the messages that pertain to human beings. Angels are honored, subtle beings created from light who serve their Lord. They exemplify the qualities of perfection, obedience, and dedication. They can take any form they like at any time and place. They carry unlimited miraculous powers through which they can reach anyone in the blink of an eye to help and to heal, to serve and to console, to love and to be loved. Angels take any form they wish in the physical world. As crystal watr takes the form of the cup in which it is poured, angels can take the fom of any creation which they visit. They do not retain their full original form of light when they are sent to human beings: "Say: If there were in the earth angels walking secure, We had sent down for them from heaven an angel [without change] as messenger" (17:95). Angels can come as birds, as human beings, or as a form of light like a rainbow adorning the sky. They have a mind and a heart, but no will and no desire other than to serve and obey God. They are never too proud to obey Him. Angels worship day and night without fatigue. They do not need to slp, as their eyes never tire. They know no heedlessness. Their attention never wavers. Their food is glorification of God, their drink is to sanctify and to magnify Him. Their intimacy is in calling their Lord through hymning and singing His praise. Their enjoyment is to serve Him. They are devoid of any and all physiological restraints. They suffer no mood-changes. Angels inhabit Paradise and the seven heavens. They worhip more than human beings because they came before them and they have greater and more powerful faculties than they. They are more pious than human beings because they are innocent and unable to fall into mistakes or wrongdoings. They never ask forgiveness for themselves but always for human beings. This shows us how much they care for us and to what extent God created them to look after us. God made them our guardians because a guardian is more perfect than the one he guards. Angels are more knowlegeable than human beings. The teacher, again, is better than the student. Their knowledge is of two kinds: intellectual and traditional. "Intellectual" means here: "of the essence of reality" or "of the heart." "Traditional" means: "revealed and translated down from above." Intellectual knowledge is a must, such as knowledge about God and His attributes. It is impossible for angels, the prophets, and pious people to fail to possess it. They have no excuse in failing to know it. The knowledge that is not obligatory is the way in which God has created the wonders of creation, such as knowledge of the Throne, of the Pen, of Paradise, Hell and Heavens. In addition there is the knowledge of the different kinds of angels, human beings, the inhabitants of the earth on the ground, under the ground, in the air, and under the sea. In the latter kind of knowledge angels are undoubtedly more versed than human beings. This is because they were created long before them: angels accompanied the entire process of creation of the universes as well as that of human beings. They are also more familiar with that knowledge because of their God-gven vision and hearing. But such knowledge is only attainable to those who have purified their heart and vision among human beings. As for traditional knowledge, it is the propheic knowledge that cannot be known by human beings without benefit of revelation. Only angels are able to bring that kind of knowledge to them. They are indeed the intermediary between God and human beings in that respect. Furthermore, it is possible that they are the continuous intermediaries of the events of the Last Day, after having been those of past and present events up to the Last Prophet, Muhammad, Peace be upon him. They are knowledgeable in the traditions that particularly regard them and with which God has entrusted them. That is the reason why angels are far more knowledgeable than human beings and carry six kinds of perfect attributes: - They are messengers from the divine presee; - They are noble in God's sight; - They have been empowered by God with a power rendering them capable of pure obedience; - They are well-regarded and firmly established in the divine presence; - They are obeyed in the earthly worl; - They are trustworthy in receiving, keeping, and delivering the revelation. End of excerpt from Shaykh Hisham. Blessings and Peace on the Best of Creation, his Family, and his Companions. Fouad Haddad Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 10:46:29 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21654; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:46:53 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21586; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:46:47 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-3 #8051) id <01HUNFQQXVHS95RPSK@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:46:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:46:29 -0500 (EST) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Subject: Comment to host To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HUNFQR9WQQ95RPSK@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 29-Aug-1995 03:29pm EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: Comment to host Greetings, This is to commend Habib Rose on his thoughtful replies, especially the latest concerning the possibility of a new sufi group. I agree with Habib that tariqas serves the proposed purpose, and I agree with him that individual members may not in themselves or in their posts always give that impression. But from what I've seen so far of this and other groups, tariqas has achieved an excellent middle ground and thank God this also must be due to its members. I take this opportunity to apologize to the brother who felt uncomfortable about the islamic content of some posts, as maybe some were mine. The intention of such posts, God knows, was to present truthfully what I know (which is little) in the best light that I know. I am sorry if the result sometimes seems to negate the desired effect -- or if for some I appear to speak a commercial, or even a foreign language. As someone said, there is a great diversity of contributors; it's good to know that the good of it outweighs the bad. Regards, Fouad Haddad Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 06:03:57 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12976; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:04:07 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12884; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:04:02 -0400 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (bergner@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA22358 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:03:58 -0700 From: Paul Bergner Message-Id: <199508292003.NAA22358@desiree.teleport.com> Subject: Re: How old is sufism? To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:03:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199508291207.AA11952@world.std.com> from "James McCaig" at Aug 29, 95 08:07:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2157 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > > Sufism, of course, predates all the religions and can be traced, in writing, > in the Library of Congress, to Ancient Egypt 6,000 years before the coming > of Christ. If anyone would like to research this fact, it will be my > pleasure to provide references to point the way. > Asalaamu alaikum. It seems to me that "sufism" in the universal sense was present in all the prophets and their companions in all times and lands, may allah peace and blessings descend upon them and the followers and descendatns throughout time. This would include our noble Abraham, Noah, and even Adam and Eve, and the vast number of Prophets (124,000?) acknowledged by Islam. (Hazrat Inayat Khan had no monopoly or original claim to universalism -- it is part of Islam, and "people of the book" (i.e. followers of previous revelations) are recognized in Islam). Many of those prophets certainly predate ancient Egypt! This should be of no controversy to Muslims because the Prophet (s) and the Quran both say at times and places that Islam, in its essence, is no different than the religion of the prophets that came before. Only their essence became overlaid with distortions that necessitated a new revelation. Regarding claims that sufism -as we know it- came other than through Islam, would someone show me any other living sufi tradition that did not come through Islam? Hazrat Inayat Khan and Murshid Samual Lewis both took their teachings and initiations from Sufi Muslims. I'm aware of the position of Murat Yagan of Canada that there is (was?) a sufism in the Caucasus mountains, but he himself studied with The Bestami order and received permission to teach, by his own account, from Suleyman Dede of the Mevlevi order. Both orders are rooted in Islam. He lately has said (in a recent Gnosis magazine article) that he is probably the only living representative of the sufism of the Caucasus, and earlier had said that he never finished his training, so we must assume, by his account, that it is a dead tradition. We do know that many islamic sufi orders are active and play an important role int eh societies of the Caucasus mountains. Peace Mustafa From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 12:48:54 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26778; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:48:56 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26751; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:48:54 -0400 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:48:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199508292048.AA26751@world.std.com> Received: from line176.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 17:00:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Propasal for New Mail list Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Brothers and Sisters, Lets all say HATS OFF! to Habib Rose. He is teh perfect example of a Sufi, always steady and accomodating. We can all learn from this gentle person and thanks, Habib. Peace and Love, Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore US Eastern Region | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 21:00:07 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04589; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:01:08 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04578; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:01:07 -0400 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:01:07 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: TARIQAS ANNOUNCEMENT To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. Just for your information, if something goes wrong with your email account (for example -- your mail box is full, or you are not authorized to receive mail) for a few days, I delete you from the tariqas email list. I'm afraid I have no other choice, since I can't get in touch with you to clear up the problem, and I get TONS of error messages filling up my account. Sorry for any inconvenience -- you may want to keep a copy of the following welcome message handy in case you ever need to resubscribe. Yours, habib rose Assalamu alaykum (may peace be with you). Welcome to 'tariqas'! 'tariqas' is a discussion group focusing on spiritual paths/ways/orders. The word "tariqas" is Arabic, and literally means "paths" or "ways." It is applied to the various Sufi Orders (e.g. the Mevlevi tariqa; the Naqshbandi tariqa). Members of all Sufi Orders, whether Muslims or non-Muslims, are welcome to participate in our group. But, this group is not exclusive to Muslims, or even to those following a specifically Sufi path. If you are a Muslim, and are interested in also participating in a group exclusively for Muslims involved with the Sufi path, there is another list you may be interested in subscribing to: sufi@think.net For subscription information on that list, send a message with the text HELP to listserv@think.net 'tariqas' is intended for any person involved in any spiritual path, who is open to sharing in an open and honest way with others - who may be involved in the same path, or one which may appear, on the surface at least, to be very different. In general, most of the participants in 'tariqas' are involved in "paths of the heart" - of love. To join 'tariqas', send a message to majordomo@world.std.com The subject line of the message is not important. The content of the message should be: subscribe tariqas Majordomo is a program which helps automate the process of running this list. Among the other commands that you can send to majordomo@world.std.com are: unsubscribe tariqas (if you want to drop out of the list - either termporarily or permanently) who tariqas (to get a list of the email addresses of members) info tariqas (to get this message) Paricipating in the group is easy - all you have to do is to send a message to tariqas@world.std.com and your message will automatically be forwarded to all members of the group. All members of the group are encouraged to feel comfortable to contribute to the discussion. Since most of us are involved in "paths of the heart" - and since we all have a heart - we all have something to say. Please try to avoid sending messages to individual group members with a "cc" (carbon copy) to the 'tariqas' group: this results in unnecesary duplication of messages. All members of the group automatically get any message sent to 'tariqas'. An archive has been set up for the 'tariqas' group. ALL LETTERS WRITTEN TO THIS GROUP WILL BE STORED IN THE ARCHIVE. If you do not want your letters stored in the archive, do not send them to the tariqas@world.std.com address (you may of course send individual letters to any member of our group - or make up your own informal list of addresses). The archive is ftp.lysator.liu.se and the archived files are in the subdirectory /pub/relgion/tariqas. If you don't know how to do an ftp (unfortunately it is kindof complex), one way to start is to enter the command "help ftp" or "man ftp" from your system prompt. Yours, Habib Rose (Habibullah) habib@world.std.com From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 21:21:54 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21566; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:22:56 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21544; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:22:54 -0400 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:22:54 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Proposal for a New Maillist To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199508290225.TAA28739@desiree.teleport.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. Perhaps it would be helpful for us to: 1. Admit that many of the things that we share are our opinions (e.g. what is a Sufi) 2. To recognize that other people in this group may be just sharing their opinions, rather than flaming us, when they have different opinions than ours Yours, habib rose From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 21:51:14 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14039; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:52:16 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14022; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:52:15 -0400 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:52:14 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Propasal for New Mail list To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Stuart Brown wrote: > > > On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Steve H Rose wrote: > > > Assalamu alaikum. > > > > P.S. If you want to share from the heart with people, it might be > > possible to do it in this list as well, even if you're not a > > card-carrying whatever. Insh'Allah (God Willing), people will respect > > you for it, and not attack your beliefs. And, if they share their own > > beliefs in response to yours, perhaps that can be seen as sharing rather > > than an attack. > > > This is the thing that I have had to grapple with - > > That I can share from my heart and someone will find it offensive, > That someone will share from theirheart and it offends my sensibility, > That it seems that I may be willing to give the space to accept, listen, > consider the feeling of others when I reply and when I read, but that I > can never expect reciprocal treatment, and I have to accept that - > One of the major issues I am dealing with in my life is that of differences/separation vs. working together and unity. It seems that a part of the tradgedy of our existence is that even people who are fundamentally in agreement find it so hard to get along and work effectively together (perhaps because our ego gets in the way -- and we feel compelled to defend to the last millimeter our own opinion, rather than admitting we may not know something, and accepting just how much we really have in common with "the other"). Yours, habib rose From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 07:11:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16775; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 04:57:26 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper.mcimail.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16741; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 04:57:23 -0400 Received: from mailgate.mcimail.com (mailgate.mcimail.com [166.38.40.3]) by gatekeeper.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA20200; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 08:55:38 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate.mcimail.com id aa17135; 30 Aug 95 8:56 WET Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:11 EST From: Mike Moore <0007106488@mcimail.com> To: tariqas Subject: Asha wonders which hand it will be. Message-Id: <72950829171127/0007106488PJ4EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > >A prophet is <> (infallible), while a wali is <> >(protected). A similar distinction applies to their respective kinds >of inspiration. > > >Fouad Haddad >Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation There is the story of Asha who let the camels stray. Muhammad became enraged and told her that Allah would take one of her hands. Later Muhammad was sorry that he had cursed her in such a manner. It seems clear that he admitted to an error. I'm sure that you know this story better that I do. How can this be reconciled against the idea of an infallible prophet? -Michael- From tariqas-approval Tue Aug 29 07:11:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16795; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 04:57:26 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper2.mcimail.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16748; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 04:57:24 -0400 Received: from mailgate2.mcimail.com (mailgate2.mcimail.com [166.38.40.100]) by gatekeeper2.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA19189; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 08:56:54 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate2.mcimail.com id af19696; 30 Aug 95 8:56 WET Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:11 EST From: Mike Moore <0007106488@mcimail.com> To: tariqas Subject: Re: Yowwee! again! Message-Id: <02950829171120/0007106488PJ4EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > >re: Mike Moor's story about how the Prophed (peace be upon him) ended up >loping of the heads of some troublemakers. > >So you advise trying twice and then loping off thier heads? >Oh well, at least thier ideal wasn't burst by the Prophet (peace be upon him) >only their heads. Guess that shows what is most important. -- Is your question meant humorously? If so, then you need to indicate so. I suggest a ;-) or something. But, to answer your question; no, this is not what I advise. Different subject: Since you did not put your name after your message, I have no idea who you are. The same applies to the message about the new group. If I wanted to reply directly to you, I could not because you did not put your name on the message and I have no idea who sent it. -Michael- From tariqas-approval Wed Aug 30 02:35:52 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06284; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 07:36:10 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06268; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 07:36:09 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-3 #8051) id <01HUOCWTGMGW95PE0X@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 07:35:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 07:35:52 -0500 (EST) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Subject: Reply to Michael To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HUOCWTMRSY95PE0X@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 30-Aug-1995 07:29am EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: Reply to Michael Peace be upon you, Michael wrote: >There is the story of Asha who let the camels stray. Muhammad became >enraged and told her that Allah would take one of her hands. >Later Muhammad was sorry that he had cursed her in such a manner. >It seems clear that he admitted to an error. >I'm sure that you know this story better that I do. >How can this be reconciled against the idea of an infallible prophet? Actually I am not familiar with the story and I strongly doubt that the Prophet "became enraged" because Aisha let the camels stray... As for the infallibility of prophets, it is based on belief, not on empirical data. It is part of a Muslim's belief that all prophets are infallible, and that their "mistakes" are didactic and not ordinary. Best regards, Fouad From tariqas-approval Wed Aug 30 09:57:23 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18906; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 09:57:23 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 09:57:23 -0400 Message-Id: <199508301357.AA18906@world.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [MIRZAMAN@bio.wpafb.af.mil] Status: RO X-Status: A >From MIRZAMAN@bio.wpafb.af.mil Sun Aug 30 05:57:00 1995 Return-Path: Received: from bio.wpafb.af.mil by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18845; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 09:57:18 -0400 X-Nvlenv-01Date-Posted: 30-Aug-1995 9:57:14 -0400; at SGP.Bldg_40 Priority: Urgent X-Nvl-Content-Type: MULTIPART; 1-S; $----Novell--Attachment----$ Date: 30 Aug 95 09:57:00 EDT From: MIRZAMAN@bio.wpafb.af.mil To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Namatollahi order Message-Id: Reply-To: MIRZAMAN@bio.wpafb.af.mil References: Form: Memo Text: (10 lines follow) salam alakom to all friends. I like to know if anyone is associated or have any information about the order of Namatollahi which originates/located in Iran. I imagine there are some gatherings outside the country that I am interested in. Any information is appreciated. salam (khoda hafez :) Mahmoud- Use Proportional Font: true Attachment Count: 0 --$----Novell--Attachment----$ X-NVL-Content-Type: UNKNOWN X-NVL-Content-Typename: UNKNOWN X-NVL-Content-Charset: X-IBM-437 X-NVL-Content-Filename: ATTRIBS.BND X-NVL-Content-Transfer-Encoding: X-UUENCODE begin 777 ATTRIBS.BND M0F5Y;VYD(%!A8VME9"!!='1R:6)U=&5S`([]"!\F"@``````0F5Y;VYD(%!R M;W!R:65T87)Y($1A=&$:`````!$```````0`!`#-```````````````````` M````````5&5X="\!`!X``0`?`.\``0#P`/```0#Q M`!`!`0`1`1$!`0`2`2); Wed, 30 Aug 1995 10:09:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 10:06:34 PDT From: Zaineb Subject: Re: Proposal for a New Maillist To: tariqas@world.std.com X-Sender: zi1@mailhub.cc.columbia.edu In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaykum. I find myself agreeing with what Habib says below. On another net I belong to, a large number of us uses the phrase "in my opinion" or "I think" when we write. There is very little flaming on that net and few personal attacks. Best to all, Zaineb On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Steve H Rose wrote: > Assalamu alaikum. > > Perhaps it would be helpful for us to: > > 1. Admit that many of the things that we share are our opinions (e.g. > what is a Sufi) > > 2. To recognize that other people in this group may be just sharing their > opinions, rather than flaming us, when they have different opinions than ours > > Yours, > > habib rose > From tariqas-approval Wed Aug 30 03:16:31 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10047; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 10:19:07 -0400 Received: from mailhub.cc.columbia.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10002; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 10:19:05 -0400 Received: from [128.59.228.37] (phl508a012a.english.columbia.edu) by mailhub.cc.columbia.edu with SMTP id AA02307 (5.65c+CU/IDA-1.4.4/HLK for ); Wed, 30 Aug 1995 10:19:04 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 10:16:31 PDT From: Zaineb Subject: Re: Reply to Michael To: tariqas@world.std.com X-Sender: zi1@mailhub.cc.columbia.edu In-Reply-To: <01HUOCWTMRSY95PE0X@ccmail.sunysb.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaykum. I too do have not heard of this story about the Prophet (SAAWS) and Umm al-Mu'miniin Aishah. Would you kindly cite a source? And thank you Fouad, for the response below. Well put. Best, Zaineb > > As for the infallibility of prophets, it is based on belief, > not on empirical data. It is part of a Muslim's belief that > all prophets are infallible, and that their "mistakes" are > didactic and not ordinary. > > Best regards, > Fouad > From tariqas-approval Wed Aug 30 11:04:31 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26241; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:04:31 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:04:31 -0400 Message-Id: <199508301504.AA26241@world.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From DANNERM@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Aug 30 11:04:28 1995 Return-Path: Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26177; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:04:28 -0400 Received: from cluster.ucs.indiana.edu (root@localhost) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11/1.8IUPO) with SMTP id KAA28872 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 10:02:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199508301502.KAA28872@belize.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 10:02:52 EWT From: "Mary Ann Danner-Fadae, 812/855-9885" X-To: PO2::"tariqas@world.std.com" Subject: RE: TARIQAS ANNOUNCEMENT To: tariqas@world.std.com unsubscribe From tariqas-approval Wed Aug 30 07:21:57 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13828; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:22:00 -0400 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13772; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:21:58 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA09827 for tariqas@world.std.com; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:21:57 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:21:57 -0400 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <950830112156_87041599@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: :) ! again! Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: dear Michael; yes humerous :) how do I do satire, or irony ? thanks for the netiquet - From tariqas-approval Wed Aug 30 11:52:18 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15680; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:52:18 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:52:18 -0400 Message-Id: <199508301552.AA15680@world.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from ["Mary Ann Danner-Fadae, 812/855-9885" ] Status: RO X-Status: >From DANNERM@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Aug 30 11:52:12 1995 Return-Path: Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15556; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:52:12 -0400 Received: from cluster.ucs.indiana.edu (root@localhost) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11/1.8IUPO) with SMTP id KAA06005 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 10:43:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199508301543.KAA06005@belize.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 10:50:36 EWT From: "Mary Ann Danner-Fadae, 812/855-9885" X-To: PO2::"tariqas@world.std.com" Subject: Re: Propasal for New Mail list To: tariqas@world.std.com Salamat, I am going to Cyprus next week and would appreciate having the address of Shaykh Nazim or any of his followers. I will be going to Larnaca and I understand that one cannot get to the Turkish side from the Greek side,so if there are any Sufi groups on the Greek side, I would like to know. Please e-mail me directly at Dannerm@ucs.indiana.edu Also Habib I tried to unsubscribe for now and could not do it. I got a message saying that I was not subscribed! Can you help? I've tried twice. I haven't been able to keep up with my messages but when I get back insha'llah I hope to. There have been several people that I wanted to reply to, one of whom asked for a glossary of terms. In case you are in a hurry for such a thing, you might try Victor Danner's The Book of Wisdom, published by Paulist Press. In the back it has a very fine glossary of terms. Best wishes to all. Majidah From tariqas-approval Wed Aug 30 05:01:17 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28277; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:37:33 -0400 Received: from mailhub.cc.columbia.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28266; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:37:31 -0400 Received: from [128.59.228.37] (phl508a012a.english.columbia.edu) by mailhub.cc.columbia.edu with SMTP id AA10043 (5.65c+CU/IDA-1.4.4/HLK for ); Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:37:30 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:01:17 PDT From: Zaineb Subject: Re: Shaykh Nazim To: tariqas@world.std.com X-Sender: zi1@mailhub.cc.columbia.edu In-Reply-To: <199508282033.AA12472@diamond.sierra.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullah. I'd like to make a couple comments on what was said below. > > You can see that "Islamic Sufis" will find it difficult to understand, much > less know, what a person like me is all about, have little interest in the > teachings of the East, e.g. Buddhism and Hinduism, or for that matter, > Christianity or Judaism. You are very much mistaken about your assertion above. Would it be possible to qualify your sweeping statement about "Islamic Sufis?" I am an "Islamic Sufi" (if you will) though I would never refer to myself as Sufi, that being a high state indeed, but I am a Muslim, born Muslim. I have benefitted immensely from reading literature in all traditions and I know for a fact that I am not the only Muslim who has done so. So, let us kindly cut the generalizations and judgements. > > Sufis don't try to convert anyone to their religion of Islam, do they? Islam > is simply one of many valid religions. As I understand it, there is only > "religion", the unswerving progress in the right direction towards the > ideal, which fulfills the life's purpose of every soul. From this one can > conclude each person has his own unique "religion". Many of us define > religion as the relationship of finite to infinite. From such, true freedom > develops. Some Sufis do, but each in their own way, some silently without words, some loudly. Islam spread in Indonesia mainly through the activities of Sufis, I am told, just as it is spreading in Africa through them as well. > It would appear that Middle East has lots to learn about East and West just > as we have of them. Yes, it certainly does. But it would make it much easier if Middle Easterners were approached with a gentle hand of reconciliation and equality, rather than a we-know-better and/or accusatory attitude that generally makes the one on the receiving end defensive and resentful. > > Love, harmony and beauty in the coming seconds, days, years, Ameen. With greetings to all, Zaineb From tariqas-approval Wed Aug 30 02:39:05 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00788; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:41:52 -0400 Received: from ix7.ix.netcom.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00754; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:41:50 -0400 Received: from by ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id JAA17283; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 09:39:05 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 09:39:05 -0700 Message-Id: <199508301639.JAA17283@ix7.ix.netcom.com> From: peterstj@ix.netcom.com (Peter Saint James) Subject: Re: Asha wonders which hand it will be. To: tariqas@world.std.com Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >There is the story of Asha who let the camels stray. Muhammad became >enraged and told her that Allah would take one of her hands. >Later Muhammad was sorry that he had cursed her in such a manner. >It seems clear that he admitted to an error. > >I'm sure that you know this story better that I do. > >How can this be reconciled against the idea of an infallible prophet? While the story may or may not be entirely true for Muhammad, it still may say something. It would seem that it was not the Prophet who was fallible. It was the person. In my experience, we each have both of those qualities within us. The challenge is to make sure the qualities of the prophet hold the reins of the qualities of the person. From tariqas-approval Wed Aug 30 14:02:01 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13742; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 13:03:03 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13718; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 13:03:01 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 13:03:01 +0059 (EDT) From: Stuart Brown Subject: Re: Proposal for a New Maillist To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Steve H Rose wrote: > > > Assalamu alaikum. > > > > Perhaps it would be helpful for us to: > > > > 1. Admit that many of the things that we share are our opinions (e.g. > > what is a Sufi) > > That would require a major adjustment in the world view of some ... That is, there is a tendency to make a God out of one's own belief. Although this may be needed, since we must make some conception of God in order to start on the path, the path continues only when we are ready to surrender that belief in the face of the inconceivable. The moment passes, we return to the world to fullfill our purpose, but perhaps we bring some vestige of what was realized in that place - and then construct our belief anew with that knowledge. It should be a continual cycle, that is the path, yes? "Shatter your ideal on the rock of Truth". - Hazrat Inayat Khan Then we may ernestly and sincerely identify the new belief with the Truth, especially if we have not been through many cycles of this. We refine our alignment with that belief, they which may itself be a struggle. We may feel that they are getting closer to the Truth, and in away, we are. There can be a narrowing here, that does not admit to a wider view. It is the curtain dropping after the unveiling, and we then are working on preparing ourselves for the next peek. OK, but to me it seems that it is an easy trap to come to a belief, justify and elaborate it however we can. Make it into a nice shell and maybe hang out there for a long time. Especially if that belief gives us happiness, a sense of belonging, of certainity, and other things that make us feel good about ourselves, or fullfill some need, eh? OK I have the Truth now, Jesus loves me, etc. (No, not me - it is that other group, that other person, that is why they believe what they do - I know what is right, and those poor sinners haven't a clue, but maybe someday they will come around, if they only think about it, etc.) I think there is a sign when a seeming contradiction to one's belief threatens one's belief, and gives rise to feelings of being hurt, etc. Well when I feel this I know that my belief is a belief and just that because the Truth would be immune to this. Even Nazi may could constantly to seek to become a better Nazi, right? And while they are winning the war they may think, yes this is the right way - but someday they will be faced with the stacks of bodies at the concentration camp. You think that is not you? Well if you are sincere about God you better hope that it is. Our idea(l) of the Truth is that it would never lead someone astray, so to speak, so then if we think that person is wrong then they our not being led by the Truth, they are being led by Satan, etc. as has been mentioned in this mail list. Can two people have seemingly contradictory ideas about the Truth and BOTH be right? And BOTH wrong? You'll never figure it out from duality. And until you are ready to leave duality, you will only know so much of God. How do we verify the Truth for ourselves? Or rather our nearness to it? Is an emotional experience enough? Because our teacher told us? Because it was written in a book in the 14th century? Reported to be said by a prophet? For any of these to be understood, requires my own assessment, does it not, even if I accept the source as reliable? Unless I defer to the learned opions of others, but then I am still assessing that that opinion is reliable, aren't I? The ayat, the revelations - there are enough for as many beliefs as their are believers. Well, at my present level of understanding, you can't know the Truth unless you become the Truth, or, another way, the part in you that is the Truth knows the Truth. The only way is to make that part bigger, to give it wider scope, more present, - and that means be ready to come to grips with and accept that every belief, every idea , every thing that seems True now may be shattered in a moment - and we have to understand that before we will be admitted to the court of the King, its the preparation. If you think you are right, you have not yet learned where you are also wrong, if you think you know the Truth, you don't, if you think someone else is wrong, then you have missed where they are right, if your faith is threatened, that is the veil to your faith being shaken, if you believe your faith cannot be shaken, you have not yet discovered it. Its not for everyone. There is a sobriety in realizing the fragility of one's opinions and conceptions, whether they come from your life experience or from reading the Quran. And more important, compassion, that allows one to expand and accept those of others. Just my opinion at this point in time, Aqil From tariqas-approval Thu Aug 31 00:12:35 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19529; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 23:13:39 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19485; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 23:13:36 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 23:13:35 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Care in sharing information over computer To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. This is just a request and suggestion to the members of tariqas to use some care in sharing information over the computer. This is a very powerful medium, and anything shared over this list could theoretically be distributed very widely anywhere in the world. Just one example is sharing "information" about people which we have heard, but don't KNOW. This could have some serious effects on those people and others. By the way, I am NOT speaking in response to ANY recent postings on tariqas -- it is just something that I thought of, and felt was important to share. Yours, habib rose From tariqas-approval Thu Aug 31 00:17:11 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22261; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 23:18:13 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22232; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 23:18:11 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 23:18:11 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Propasal for New Mail list (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: From: "Mary Ann Danner-Fadae, 812/855-9885" Salamat, I am going to Cyprus next week and would appreciate having the address of Shaykh Nazim or any of his followers. I will be going to Larnaca and I understand that one cannot get to the Turkish side from the Greek side,so if there are any Sufi groups on the Greek side, I would like to know. Please e-mail me directly at Dannerm@ucs.indiana.edu Also Habib I tried to unsubscribe for now and could not do it. I got a message saying that I was not subscribed! Can you help? I've tried twice. I haven't been able to keep up with my messages but when I get back insha'llah I hope to. There have been several people that I wanted to reply to, one of whom asked for a glossary of terms. In case you are in a hurry for such a thing, you might try Victor Danner's The Book of Wisdom, published by Paulist Press. In the back it has a very fine glossary of terms. Best wishes to all. Majidah